If you have a diesel car, look out.

[tabbypurr]

lot faster than some things I've driven then

higher burn temp means more of the N2 reacts.

NT

[Nightjar]

So, do what they have done in numerous city abroad - ban cars that don't or can't display a sticker showing they comply with a minimum emissions standard.

[Chris Green]

Apparently *some* modern diesels are cleaner than modern petrol engines, even as regards NO emissions.

All cars (petrol, diesel, hybrid) should be tested using the same rules which (obviously) should be as close to 'real driving' as possible. However I'm not sure if one should include the indirect pollution from the electricity consumed by cars and, if so, how you could do it.

[tabbypurr]

1 minute for a fill is more realistic, so make that 35MW from the pump.

NT

[Chris Green]

Our diesel Citroen XM (any of them, we had several) would probably manage it. They had a tank capacity of more than 80 litres and the diesels were fairly economical.

[Roger Hayter]

How did they get to be particulates, rather than particles?

It's a bit like lead in paint versus lead in petrol versus lead in pipes. The government will keep quiet about sources of pollution like gas boilers that it has no current intention to do anything about.

[Tim Streater]

So who gets the sticker? A given model or cars which, individually, pass the standard?

[Tim Streater]

So I take the cable from the pump and plug it into the car. That's a cable running at 35kV and passing 1000 amps. Or 70kV and passing 500 amps. Any idea how to make such a cable safe and light enough for the average person to use? And how much stuff is needed within the car to use that power coming in?

And, assuming that the power-to-battery transfer is 99% efficient, how to deal with the 350kW of waste heat generated within the car while this process is going on?

Answers on a postage stamp please.

Or are you just belling the cat?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

But the emphasis the government puts on things has. Only a few years ago they were urging people to change to diesels because of allegedly lower CO2 output. Even when it was known the harmful to humans pollutants from the average diesel were much higher than from the same power petrol engine. And that ignored that diesels tend to pollute even more as they age, due to emissions control equipment fitted having little effect on the running when faulty. And having an MOT which simply doesn't check them properly.

[NY]

I suppose it could be a combination of the two. For example, all cars that pass Euro "n" standard (for some value of n), plus those in Euro "n-1" which are tested at their equivalent of an MOT and are found to produce lower particulates and NOx than some threshold value.

All of it goes to show that the "demon" emissions change over the years. First it was lead in petrol, then it was sulphur, then it was CO2, then it was particulates in diesel, now it's NOx in diesel. When they've reduced NOx, what will be next?

[NY]

Yes I was being pessimistic in my timing of 5 mins to fill up a tank. When you're standing at a pump, that's actually quite a long time. It my well be less. If I could plug a car in and wait inside, maybe I'd be prepared to wait 5 minutes for a recharge. But if it's during the course of a long journey, and not when I'd be stopping anyway (pee and food stop) then I wouldn't want to wait much longer.

But it's all rather academic really. Even if you extend the charge time to an hour, that's still a sizable energy-transfer rate. I remember the elec eng professor at university giving us a lecture about the prospect of electric cars in the future (this was in the mid 80s) and he finished off with the energy rate of a petrol pump and the scary figure of x MW which you had to match with electric recharging. He didn't go further and talk about it in terms of voltages and currents (and therefore safety and thickness of cable) or of the horrendous problem of the amount of waste heat from inefficient charging.

Hell, 350 kW waste heat is far more than a 3kW electric fire produces, and look how hot that gets.

How far have fuel cells evolved? Can they safely be "recharged" at a comparable rate and can they supply the maximum running power to drive the motors? I ought to know: one of my mum's friend's husbands was professor fuel technology (and still is, in an emeritus capacity) and I remember chatting to him about it at my sister's wedding in the 90s.

Leaving aside charging rate, how much energy does it take to get (for example) 100 miles of range, in terms of kWhr at a normal domestic electricity tariff? Compared with the cost of petrol or diesel to give you the same range?

[harry]

The very reason we're going electric.

[harry]

Electric cars cover the journey with less than half the fuel. Much more efficient and regeneration.

[David]

toyota-diesel-engine-UK

Daily ultra-reliable Express.

Toyota say they won't supply any more diesels.

"Toyota said it would continue to offer a handful of diesel engines, for its Land Cruiser 4x4 and for some commercial vehicles such as the Hilux and Proace."

So they are no longer offering diesels in smaller vehicles where petrol and hybrid are good enough. For big load luggers (1 or 2 pallets) which can tow 3.5 tonnes they seem to be staying with the high torque diesels.

Personal experience; sold our 2.3 litre petrol 240 bhp Volvo Estate (850R, shit off a very well greased shovel) because although it had the power it didn't have the weight to tow a 2 tonne caravan.

Bought a 3.5 litre 240 BHP VW Touareg because it did have the weight to tow a caravan; it has a towing limit of 3.5 tonnes and unlike some others can also be loaded to its GVW and tow a 3.5 tonne trailer all within the maximum train weight. Like shit of a quite shiny shovel despite the increased weight.

The VW is very relaxing to drive, and goes remarkably well when pulling the caravan. Fit for the job.

During all the research there wasn't a petrol driven towing vehicle (4*4) over 2 tonnes kerb weight which jumped out as a viable option. Most options were diesel pick ups, estates or SUVs. Range Rover V8 might look fun, but expensive to buy and expensive to run.

The motor manufacturers will have to produce a new range of economical petrol engines targeted at the big load luggers which do so much of the utility work before diesels can be phased out.

I did read that although the total carbon footprint of the UK is at its lowest since the 1890s that CO2 from vehicles had started rising again, possibly due to the increase in new sales of petrol vehicles. No hard evidence offered, though.

Cheers

Dave R

[harry]

Don't talk drivel. Even a fast charge is around 40Kw. A slow charge (overnight say) is only 2 or 3 Kw

[harry]

Drivel. Only electric cars will be made. Have you forgotten already?

[Michael Chare]

I am hoping that my diesel car will last until they get Lithium air batteries to work properly, or some other equally weight efficient technology. Even then I wonder if the car will be warm enough on a long journey in cold weather.

[Michael Chare]

Not to mention buses which politicians appear to like and ships.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Petrol engines are at their worst efficiency wise when doing stop start journeys. At cruise, nothing like the same difference between petrol and diesel. And diesel can become less efficient when thrashed.

Hybrid technology gets round the problem of poor efficiency in stop start conditions.

[Brian Gaff]

I think though that the low emission zones being planned in many densely populated parts of the country may well make them unaffordable. Its all very stupid to me, as we all always knew, did we not that diesel vehicles tend to kick out soot and fumes like crazy even with the new gizmos fitted. The market was skewed their way and lots of people fell for the marketing.

Brian