Electric cars a step nearer mainstream?

[The Natural Philosopher]

You can optimise for lifetime: Ive got 5yaer old packs that still do about 75% of what they did new.

So why are they scrapped then?

Becasue the doors rust through?

It doesn;t matter why they are scrapped: what maters is the lifetime of theweakest link,and the cost to repair, or the cots to replacce the whole car.

People expect about 15 years and 200K miles.

The cost of a exchange battery is ismply compared with te fuel savings and the cost of the annual service on an IC car, which is likley to be far more expensive.

Basically there should be NO routine service on an electric car power train at all. Tyres brakes suspension and bulb check (LED?) plus a battery quality check. Maybe a power output check, in case permanent magnets aren't..but I would expect that all to be part of the inbuilt software anyway.

No suitable batteries.

Thats the key. The newer generation of lithiums can just about do the job. Thats the key issue. No other battery has ever been able to match the efficiency, lifetime, self discharge and power to weight and energy to weight.

Theres way to go, and early batteries will not be all that good, but they are good enough right now - just - to go into small scale service. I would NOT buy an electric car right now without a full scale battery warranty, though. I expect there will be plenty of issues related to them. But if the manufacturers stand behind the customers and simply fix the issues, why not?

[Rod]

Wasn't the possibility of an electric version one of the reasons for the A-class having that design?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Probably illegal.

I HAVE done 900 miles non stop in a day, with a ferry break and a short driver change. And of course ten minute stops to refuel and take a pee.

Ive done a shade over that in 24 hours..Copenhagen to Cambridge with just a cross channel ferry stop and a 15 minute break, but I would not say that it was a legal or safe way to drive for more than the odd emergency.

600 miles takes you from John O groats to lands End: its hard to see many people doing more than that in one day.

Or indeed being able to do it in under 12 hours. And if you think that 3 one hour stops to recharge the batteries at a service station is a bad thing in such a drive, then I think you are a danger to yourself and to the rest of the travelling public.

[Adrian]

Rod gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Probably, but the main reason was maximising the ratio of interior-to- exterior space. Height was, of course, not deemed a restriction.

[Adrian]

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

At, presumably, a trade-off in terms of capacity to size and weight?

Because of a myriad of small age-related niggles and minor repair bills - tyres, minor collision damage - outweighing the used value of the vehicle.

It's really only Ford who still manage to make cars that rot. Everybody else sorted it years ago.

In this context, yes - it does. Very much.

Indeed. But most of those lifetime/cost-to-fix factors will be exactly the same. It's really only the drivetrain costs which will be different. On the one hand, you've got oil changes and cambelt changes. On the other, you've got battery pack changes.

All of which apply equally to ICE, of course.

Some recent statistics...

First-time MoT failure rates (2007), supplied by VOSA

In 2007, 21.6 per cent (580,754) of three-year old cars failed their first test. Among 836,646 individual failure faults, the top 10 were:

1 Lighting and signalling 271,567 2 Tyres and wheels 155,489 3 Drivers view of the road (Cracked/chipped windscreens, other obstructions) 120,095 4 Brakes 110,327 5 Steering and suspension 99,798 6 Fuel and emissions 23,634 7 Reg plates and VIN (vehicle identification number) 19,047 8 Seatbelts 11,271 9 Body and structure 7,705 10 Road wheels (loose, missing wheel nuts etc) 5,746

So that's 23,634 out of 836,646 failure items (less than 3%) which would _not_ apply equally to an electric vehicle. And that's at the first MOT, three years, when most modern cars will probably have only had one or two services since new.

[Doctor Drivel]

They soon will be. Big thirsty car sales are down.

[Mark]

The water can be used to keep the cells cool ;-)

[Doctor Drivel]

They still get scrapped.

It doesn't. They are scrapped.

Totally right. A yearly MOT to check the rolling parts is all it will need.

[Mark]

IME Cars are scrapped when they are no longer economic to maintain. A lot of this depends on the depreciation. In the early days I would guess that an electric car would depreciate more quickly than a "ICE" powered vehicle and therefore be scrapped younger.

Not on a Vauxhall ;-)

[Mark]

Yes, like needing to carry more than one passenger.

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 13:05:47 on Wed, 4 Jun 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:

Rubbish. 500km is 310 miles, or the distance from the Midlands to Glasgow. Easily driveable in a day.

[Adrian]

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

In what way?

Some people do drive outside the UK, y'know. Or there-and-back- again.

Anyway, the question was 500km. 300 miles. London to Sheffield and back.

[August West]

Easily driveable in an evening; I commuted bi-weekly Edinurgh-Cambridge for a few years, driving north on Friday evening, after work, and back on Sunday.

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 12:39:06 on Wed,

4 Jun 2008, Adrian remarked:

I've seen families who have driven from the Chicago area to Disneyland Florida in one go. That's about 1200 miles (18 hours) and much more than I'd want to.

[R.C. Payne]

If you look at buses, you will find that electric trolley buses have a significantly longer service life than diesel buses. Same goes for railway vehicles.

Robin

[R.C. Payne]

Or perhaps pay their staff to take the train.

Robin

[R.C. Payne]

Petrol engines are less efficient because of throttle losses and lower compression ratios, therefore they emit more CO2. The purpose of catalytic converters is to reduce NOx, CO and unburned hydrocarbons. They are significantly less effective for diesel engines than petrol engines because diesel engines run with excess air while petrol engines are stoichiometric. Diesel engines also suffer from particulate emissions (the dangerous ones are invisible to the naked eye, though).

Robin

[R.C. Payne]

My understanding is most of the people who died did so as a result of jumping out of the ship while it was still aloft. Those who survived were the ones who waited on board for it to burn off enough lifting gas to fall to the ground, and then walked (ran) away from the wreckage before it collapsed around them.

Still, the risk of explosion from a charging battery is hardly any worse than the risk of explosion at a petrol station.

Robin

[Adrian]

"R.C. Payne" gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Is that due to replacement cost, though?

I'll admit that I was a little loose in my terminology - by "vehicles", I was meaning those of the size we were discussing here - cars and light vans.

Are there any trolleybuses in the UK?

[Adrian]

"R.C. Payne" gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

I was thinking more in terms of the vehicles we were discussing in this thread - cars and light vans.

Trolley buses and railway vehicles are significantly different, in that they don't store the electrickery on board - and have a much, much higher initial purchase cost than a Ford Focus. Because of that, they're typically refitted several times over a working life - diesel or electric.