Electric cars produce more CO2 than diesel cars

[Andy Burns]

Electric cars produce more CO2 than diesel cars, if you charge them with German electricity from coal ...

[bert]

In article [e-mail]>, Andy Burns [e-mail] writes

persuaded the government that hydrogen was the way to go and they started to increase the fuel duty.

[Brian Gaff]

Yes any time you convert energy from one form to another its less efficient, so you obviously need a coal powered car then.

Brian

[T i m]

I think there are two key issues here.

1) The reduction of kerbside emissions in areas of dense population. 2) The reduction of other 'pollutants' (of our world) in general.

So, as with energy saving devices, one way to reduce kerbside emissions in cities is to ban polluting vehicles there, as they are effectively doing to some degree with ULEZ's and pedestrianisation some key roads / areas.

The overall pollutants thing needs to be long term, it's no good relying on say PV if their construction causes more pollution than saved over their effective lifetimes. Possibly easy to do when compared with the use of fossil fuels over the same period but is it the best for transport when compared with alternatives, alternatives that may include a rationally different way of life?

Cheers, T i m

[bert]

In article <qa67q9$9cu$ [e-mail], Brian Gaff [e-mail]> writes

There were steam powered lorries but ISTR reading somewhere Manchester City council put them out of business by reducing the weight permitted on their roads.

[Marland]

It wasn?t just Manchester. The Salter report of the 1930?s was the instigation of a change in the way vehicles were taxed and Lorries were taxed on axle load. Steam wagons being heavier than the equivalent ICE for the same load capacity were immediately at a disadvantage . Fortunately the Diesel engine was just becoming refined enough that it could reliably be used in a road vehicle coupled with gearboxes and clutches that could take heavy loading so most makers were giving up steam construction anyway .

One company Sentinel carried on and their last vehicles were actually quite refined and fast compared to the ICE of the period and could easily exceed the speed limits of the time.

A few in this clip

Despite their efforts the taxation killed the market in the UK though some users partly due to WW2 making new vehicles hard to get kept some going to the early fifties . Many got around the increase in tax by shortening the wagons carrying no load on them but towing a trailer but that could only work well in certain circumstances. A few were made for export with the last batch of 100 going to Argentina in 1950 where at least one battered one remains.

thought supposedly it is now being renovated.

GH

[harry]

Drivel.

[harry]

How do electric cars "emit" any CO2?

[newshound]

They are rather splendid!

[T i m]

When you charge them from anything other than pixie dust, or do you think even PV solar panels 'just exist' and last forever? <roll eyes>

What is it with you left brainers that limits your brain / imagination / common sense so?

Cheers, T i m

[harry]

They emit nothing. Any emissions are much reduced and are at at the power station if fossil fuel is involved. The fuel used is much less, especially if the power station is combined cycle gas.

[Bill]

In message [e-mail], harry [e-mail] writes

The discussion is about producing CO2 no matter where or when.

AIUI they are generally heavier, and thus also are more likely to produce more of the other dangerous pollutants such as particles from tyres, brakes etc., while not having as much towing (or carrying?) capacity.

[Andy Burns]

From the car, obviously

And if you'd read the article, the CO2 emitted in Germany (with all their coal in the generation mix) is not reduced, it's *higher*

[rmlaws54]

This reference says otherwise:

It says that, in the long run, the carbon footprints are about the same. This is because of the much larger carbon footprint of the manufacture of an electric car compared with a petrol car.

Robert

[harry]

There you go again Bill, guessing again.

If you had an electric car, you'd know that 99% of braking is regenerative, one only touches the brake pedal to actually stop the car from around 5mph when the regenerative effect is negligable. And even when you press the brake pedal, the initial thing it does is boost the regenerative brake.

Can be a problem, your brake discs can rust through lack of use.

Oh and the electric motor is very small and light. And no fuel to carry.

The car is only slightly heavier than an ICE car.

Plus no clutch to wear and generate particles. And no used engine oil/filters to dispose of.

[harry]

That is because of the coal not the electric cars. Electric cars overall efficiency/CO2 production, extraction of fuel to power at the wheels is around a quarter of petrol/diesel.

[T i m]

Where have you answered all of the other points though?

Interesting I'm sure.

Amazing.

Terrible (and BS no doubt).

And that stops the EV being even heavier than it's IC brother?

And no real range.

But it *is* heavier, whilst offering less performance / range / towing ability.

Wow, an actual plus!

I know, I've had a PEV longer that you and most other people for that matter.

So, back to the pollution created to run your EV ... and *even* *your* EV, not a German EV.

Your solar panels (that we fund) were just magicked onto your roof made from pixie dust, they didn't need to mine the ore to make the ally frames or the steel mountings and the panels themselves didn't take any energy to produce or cause any pollution?

The batteries in your EV, the same ... and what when both the panels and batteries die? Can they be smelted down and turned back into a new engine block as an old engine block can?

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Oh no, really, do you think that's what we were getting at in the first place!!! <rolls eyes>

Cite?

What is the lifetime pollution footprint for the batteries? How much CO2 was created in their construction and their final disposal.

What CO2 is created when they are charged (including all energy sources).

The *only* 'advantage' of EV's over ICE vehicles is re kerbside emissions in (specifically) heavily built up areas. They are not an advantage at all to someone who only cycles and lives by a gas / coal / waste fired power station.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

You don't expect the presence of real fact to sway the likes of harry from their bogus cause do you? ;-(

And this carbon footprint equivalence is done at a massive loss in flexibility to 'most people'. People who don't happen to have their own off-road parking or actually need to drive more than 100 miles per trip (or tow something).

They are good, in the same way as a moped can be better than a motorbike or a rowing boat better than a car ferry. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[polygonum_on_google]

A few days ago, out for a walk, a diesel vehicle went by - some sort of 4WD thing. It looked as if it had borrowed one of the smoke generators from the Red Arrows (white one). Or was carrying 50 extremely heavy vapers. The entire road was covered in white "smoke". Smell and taste absolutely vile. Any car behind would have put on its fog lights.

Quite possibly almost no CO2. But a form of pollution unlikely to emanate from an electric car.