Generator on kerosene

[Stormin Mormon]

Many years ago, I was told that a small (or large?) gasoline engine will run fine on kerosene. However, it will only run after it's warmed up, needs gasoline to get it started and running.

The application for this is remote pump houses, and fire pumps in remote locations. The engine has a valve system for the fuels. A couple galons of gasoline are kept on hand, and replaced every couple months. A larger tank of kerosene is also present.

The operation plan is that if the pump is needed, the operator comes in. Sets the valve to "gasoline" and pours in a galon into the smaller gas tank. Runs the engine to get it started, and warm, and then changes the valve to kerosene. When shutting down, it is then necessary to either run the engine dry, or change it back to gasoline.

Now, to make this personal. I have a Coleman generator at home, with a 5 HP Briggs and Stratton engine. Supposing for the sake of discussion, we have an extended duration power cut. Has anyone personally had experience with this? Is this a correct description?

I've got maybe 5 galons of gasoline at home, and about 20 galons of kerosene. It would be very nice to use a quart of gas to get my generator warmed up, and then pour kerosene into the tank. But I'd sure feel more reassured if someone else out there had done this, and knows that it it will work.

Would have to run the generator dry, when shutting down. So as to allow to restart the next time on a quart or so of gasoline.

I appreciate any ideas, advice, or thoughts.

[toller]

A few years ago someone came out with low-volatile gasoline. The idea was that you stick a gallon in your car trunk, and if you ever run out of gas, you have the spare gallon. But they removed the most volatile components, so it would not explode in a collision. It would not start a cold motor, but would run in a warm motor. It cost 10X the price of gasoline.

If you could just use kerosene for that, then the product would have been unnecessary. (but since I haven't seen it in a few years, maybe it was unnecessary.)

[Harry Everhart]

Back in the 50s - we had a farm - Dad was a coal miner - but he tried to run a 10 acre farm on the side. One of the ways he used to "stretch" his money was to run a mixture of 50% kerosene and 50% gasoline. At the time gasoline was about 17 cents a gallon and kerosene was 5 cents a gallon - at the time that was a big savings. The tractor would jug along just fine on the mixture - it was a Ford Cub with the spread out front wheels. I used to love to "drive" it on the seat with him.

Today - since home heating oil is "virtually" kerosene - one may be considering running a mixture of fuel oil and gasoline in their car to "save" money because fuel oil does not have a road tax on it. Just remember the government colors fuels for just that reason. I doubt if one would get caught - but it is a risk.

During the 1978 "energy crisis" - I had a friend that bought a VW diesel

- and used to run it on home heating oil which was half the price because of no road tax. He used to pull the car into the basement and gravity feed the fuel from the big red oil tank by the furnace. He would have gotten away with it if he didn't brag about it everyday in the faculty room - and some disgruntled soul turned him in. He got a big fine - plus a lot of bad publicity in the newspapers.

PS - one time I owned a diesel Cadillac - never a diesel VW ;-)

Harry

[Joseph Meehan]

Are you sure that was a gasoline engine they were talking about. Diesel and kerosene are very close. Gasoline is different.

At best, I would expect that it would do the engine no good, if it worked. I am sure it would really screw up a modern automotive gasoline engine.

It might have been a better idea to have bought a diesel engine generator tot start with.

[Dr. Hardcrab]

"Harry Everhart" wrote

#2 Heating oil and diesel are basically the same thing. A lot of people were doing what you described and that is why they started putting the red dye in the heating oil (and kerosene). Supposedly if the cops pull over a trucker and they do an inspection, any dyed fuel in the tank will cost them $10,000 in fines.

[m Ransley]

One thing for sure you will carbon up everything. A carboned piston, head and valves will ruin a motors power. So get ready to dissasemble it for cleaning. Overall a dumb idea.

[John]

Yes, kerosene is basically super refined diesel fuel or heating oil. I can't imagine a gasoline engine could even combust it being it has such a lower flash point. I know you can easily run a diesel engine on kerosene..Been there done that.. Had an Oldsmobile Ninety Eight diesel and ran out of fuel backing out of the driveway. Ran to the shed, got my five gallon can of Kerosene and poured it in. Started right up and ran fine all the way to the fuel station. Don't think putting diesel in a gas engine would hurt the engine, other than quickly fouling the plugs if you could even get it to fire, but doing the opposite, putting gas in a diesel engine can cause damage quick... John

[Edwin Pawlowski]

With the the fuel filters and precision fuel injcetors, coupled with the computer tuning, I wonder if it would run at all. Years ago, I remember running a 1950 Chevy six with about half and half after a trucker filled the wrong tank.

I think the VW was probably faster . That GM diesel was a god awful engine.

[Harry Everhart]

Joe - This was done in the 30s - 40s - 50s to save money. Yeah - the gasoline engine did not run the greatest on a mixture of kerosene/gasoline but it ran well enough to do the work. Times were tough and money was tight. You made do with whatever worked. We ran a Ford Cub Tractor on the mixture for 10 years - by the way - it was a very used tractor to start with :-) We also had a gasoline clothes washer on the back porch that ran on the same mixture. It was a two cylinder opposed engine - no carb - just a reeded dial that mixed the air and fuel. You twisted it open for more air - twisted it closed to stop it. The washe has a pedal similar to a motorcycle to start it. That was a sight seeing my 200 pound Mom "dancing" up and down on that starter pedal every Monday morning. Harry

[Harry Everhart]

No wonder I bought it so cheaply. :-) It did cruise well - it was one of the later ones. I set a personal best time record from PA to FL in it with only one stop for fuel. Don't ask. Harry PS - Wife loved it but we never drove with the windows down.

[Duane Bozarth]

Initially those had terrible failure rates...they were simply the large-block gas engine w/ higher compression heads--head failures and cooling problems were rampant.

They made modifications over the years and eventually they were servicable if not great...as you note, lack of convenient auto diesel pumps and noise/cold-starting/odor/initial cost made them a no-go w/ the public. Of course, now, w/ diesel as high or higher than gasoline, there's little incentive, either.

[Jeff Wisnia]

Yes I've seen small single cylinder engines used for irrigation pumps and similar which had dual compartment fuel tanks. A large section for kero and a small one for gasoline. There was a valve you could turn to switch from one to the other, and you had to remember to switch it back to gas for a while before stopping it so there was gas, not kero in the carb bowl for the next start.

Kero run farm tractors were quite common, again with gasoline used for starting.

I strongly doubt that today's sophisticated engines and fuel systems could take that kind of treatment without serious modifications.

Back during WWII I remember reading an article in either Popular Mechinics or Mechanix Illustrated showing how to add No.2 fuel oil burning capability to an ordinary car. IIRC in addition to needing two fuel tanks, they had you wrap a bunch of copper tubing around the exhaust manifold to deliver the fuel oil to the carb heated up so it would "work better".

Gas was rationed during that war. I remember my dad had an "A" sticker on his windshield which was the lowest priority and entitled him to buy only 3 or 4 gallons of gasoline a week. (Actually it was RUBBER that was the big problem, the US had pretty good supplies of oil, but at the time the Japanese declared war we were getting over 95% of our rubber from Japan, and synthetics weren't really on line yet. So, rationing gas saved rubber.)

I've still got a spark plug from one of those beasts in my box of "fun junk" It comes apart for cleaning. The name "Maytag" is printed on the other side of the insulator, you can just see the ending "g" in Maytag to the left of the "CHAM" in the right hand photo:

Thanks for the mammaries,

Jeff

[Harry Everhart]

Jeff - Thanks for the pix of the Maytag spark plug. That was it! I remember the whole washing machine was made of cast parts - maybe not iron - but something cast. Years later in the 60s - I made a "buggie" like a soap box racer with that engine in it. We hooked a belt to it and it barely powered the car

- maybe 2 mph tops - you could walk faster than that. But I do remember the police coming up to "pull us over" and tell us we couldn't operate a motor powered vehicle without a license. Boy - times have changed. Even though it only went maybe two miles per hour - I was the envy of the neighborhood for a week. I guess I got "street cred" for being stopped by the cops. Harry

[Percival P. Cassidy]

My late father farmed in England and had many tractors that were designed to start on gasoline, then switch over to TVO (="Tractor Vaporising Oil" = kerosene) once they warmed up. However, IMO an engine would have to be designed to run primarily on kerosene: if its viscosity is different from that of gasoline, the carburetor would need different-size jets; and what about the air-fuel proportions?

(I even recall an International Harvester TD9 tracklayer that started on gasoline, then switched over to diesel!)

Perce

On 03/08/05 09:09 am Stormin Mormon tossed the following ingredients into the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

[Harry Everhart]

I did NOT love my Caddy diesel - but it was a good dependable car. The reason I bought it was because - it was two years old and it was at least $5000 less than a gas powered one of the same year - like $9000 instead of $14,000. In the winter - I would fuel up with diesel and put

5 gallons of kerosene in to prevent fuel gelling. You had to drive it like a diesel - lots of torque - good top end cruising - low RPM - but noisy - smelly - hated to fuel up - smelly hands. also it has two 12 volt batteries for cranking. Nothing like today's fine VW diesels. Harry

[Chuck]

You'll probably like this link as well.. Look half way down the page for the washing machine..

[Jeff Wisnia]

Did your family's washing machine also have that rolling mill like water squeezer outer thingus on top which gave birth to the expression, "I got my tit in a wringer"...?

Jeff

[Harry Everhart]

The gray washing machine behind the green washing machine was ours. I do remember both of them though. Pictures like that jog the memory so much. Wow. Don't get me wrong - things are so much better now - cars - houses - TVs

- appliances - medications - schools - planes - clothes - you name it. But your past is fleeting - gone forever - it is nice for just a taste of it. :-) In our case - we had to fill the washing machine with pots of water that we hand pumped from the well and put on the stove. Then you would wash the clothes - then run them thru the wringer by hand - then fill with cold water from the pump again - then rinse the clothes - then run them thru the ringer - then hang them on the line - then iron them because they were really wrinkled. Harry

[Duane Bozarth]

Harry Everhart wrote: ...regarding old GM diesel...

Yeah, that was the result of the rampant earlier failures and thus the resale value was the pits for them...I considered one once for the same reason but decided not to take the chance...

[Duane Bozarth]

Harry Everhart wrote: ...re: old times...

...

Just out of curiousity, where/when was this?

We didn't get REA power until '48, but had wind Delco generator well prior to that...