Electric cars a step nearer mainstream?

Adrian wrote:

Probably at 30% market penetration and when other domestic usage is low..e.g. at 'cheap rate' times.

No, they would need upgrading, but thats something that can be done as needed.
I am sure the same gumenst were applied to the motitr vis a vis the availability of petrol when horseless carriages were first discussed: now we have a multi-=billion pound insdutry tankering fuel around to garages.
At least THEY would diappear from our roads..

you are getting confused. 12 hours at 3Kw is 36Kwh. That is the limit of a standard 13A socket.
60A at 240v is 172Kwh over 12 hours, That is the limit of a domestic single phase supply cabling and fusing, though most COULD be upgraded to 100A.
About one hour at 50-200KW is probably the limits of current battery ability to soak up charge efficiently and safely. THAT needs some custom charging stations probably fed by a separate substation.

If only it were that simple ;-)
Seriously, its all about cost benefit in the end. People who live in towns without the nice off street parking with charge, will find that they have to pay more for motoring: they will either stop motoring, or sort out how to charge, or stay with petrol/diesel.
Your estate agent will specify house electrical capacity and off street charging points as part of the literature, and houses which have neither will not sell well.
Frankly for many people who live in urban terraces, they probably already walk or cyce to te corner shop anyway; there is no reason why their cars could not be kept in a local car park, on permanent charge, ready for when they really need them. Safe from vandalism, and, possibly, the weather.
A lot of people in London do this anyway. Not the charging bit, but they rent monitored off road garaging. If electric car tax was adjusted down, and not too many taxes put on the electricity, it could be made at least no more expensive.
I really don't see a problem except in the transition. It would make in fact the risk of visiting such people MUCH easier, as the on street parking would be available for short term stops.

So? that is not half as lunatic as other greenwash bollocks that is propounded.
And would mean cutting our dependence on the middle east and Russia for petroleum, with obvious advantages. Not to mention hugely swinging the balance of payments away from imports.

when its costing you a quid a mile to run the diesel and 2p for the electric, its amazing how fast peoples objections will disappear...
..even to maybe coal fired stations.
right now we have sufficient off peak generation capacity for a market penetration of maybe up to 10% or more. We probably have grid capacity for maybe 30%.
That's already a bigger potential impact than almost any other 'green' technology has..
If you take - say - 100KWh as being roughly 200 mile range, your off peak fuel costs equate to - at lets say 5p a unit - about £5 a tank..
Now even a 60mpg diesel is currently at around £20 for the same mileage. A factor of four, plus all the maintenance costs associated with an IC engine. And the electric probably outperforms the 60mpg diesel too. Thats the nice thing with electrics. You can get peak power without incurring losses or excess weight in the power train. With IC if you want big power you end up with big components, or highly revving smaller ones, which leads to larger frictional losses in cruise mode.
A 5000 mile a year driver is probably going to save about a grand on motoring costs by going electric. £750 on fuel and about £150 on the service. Oh and there are tax implications too IIRC. Whether the battery depreciation will match IC car depreciation is a moot point, but at least with a battery car a second hand model probably is fixable with just one thing - a reconditioned battery - rather then the zillion little things that can go badly wrong with an IC car.
That's worth giving up a 400 mile range for, for many people. Who have driveways that can take an extension cable..
For those with the space to charge, and who run 2 cars or more anyway, making the small one an electric is economically justifiable already. If the cars were available. I'd buy one tomorrow, if the price was right.
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were saying:

Not if 70% - especially since that 70% is going to include trucks, vans, high-mileage cars - are still petrol/diesel.

Which, on the Pious's 2-miles-from-1.5kWh, is a bit under 50 miles.

<grin>
Back to where we were decades ago - private transport was only for the wealthy.

Indeed not. That's not what I was meaning. It's a realistic assumption, which nicely illustrates the fact that it's physically impossible and would be political suicide for any government.

IIRC the timescale for nuclear power station building is as much down to the availability of the boys who can do it as planning laws.

<wince>
Given that the only inherent mechanical difference between a battery electric car and an IC car is the removal of the nice reliable engine and gearbox and replacement with an electric motor and battery pack, you'll find that the "zillion little things that can go badly wrong" (which, these days, are mainly in the multiplexed electronics and safety systems) are still there in exactly the same form. Very few cars are scrapped because of terminal engine or transmission wear.
OTOH, there was an example of one of the few recent "realistic" battery electric production vehicles on fleaBay a year or two back - a Berlingo electric van. Only about 4-5yo, and low mileage, an equivalent diesel van would have been worth several thousand pounds, probably about 40% of the value of a new one.
The electric didn't sell, at a very low opening price of a couple of hundred quid, despite having been considerably more expensive new. Why? Because it "only" needed a new battery pack - the parts for which were/ are available, but cost around twice the price of a NEW diesel Berlingo. I have no doubt that it was eventually broken for the many bits common with the diesel.
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Adrian wrote:

I am not talking about a Pious. Its a total abortion. I am talking a bout a proper BEV that doesn't have to carry a silly engine, a generator, and a complex drive system to couple the lot to an electric motor, and a pig heavy nickel battery that self discharges in a month or two, shoehorned into conventional and extremely heavy and poorly performing conventional 'bent tin' car

That may actually be not such a bad way to go.But I dont think it will pan out that way.

Its neither actually.

standard designs exist than can be constructed pretty quickly. Most of te power station is tsandard stugg downstream of the steam boiler. Its only upstream that its 'nuclear'. The CANDU - the French PWR. I think there is a German design as well. The major lag these days is in planning.
Very little of it requires specialised knowledge, just the reactor itself, and the way teh radioactive materials are handled. The latter is common practice in other industries that use radioactive stuff. So really its only the reactor and primary heat exchangers that are 'unusual'.

No they are scrapped because they aren't fashionable and its cheaper to plonk a deposit on a new one than pay someone to fix them. There's a lot MORE to fix IN them. There must be 50-60 bearings alone in the average power train. That becomes probably no more than 8 in an electric. There are a plethora of tubes and pipes carrying liquids everywhere. Ther would be - apart from the screenwasher and possibly brakes and power steering, no liquids. There are already TWO fairly massive electric motors in a car - the starter and the alternator. They are relatively reliable compared with the rest. There are about 15 sensors in the average car, four or more spark plugs or injectors,. None of THAT is needed. No oil filters, no oil pump. No water pump. No starter motor. No alternator. No distributor. No camshaft, valves, cambelt. No turbo charger No air filter.No catalytic exhaust,with its mounting rubbers and corrosion problems. Possibly no hydraulics either. Just a big pack and a fan, 4 electric motors and a lot of electronics. Probably no separate gauges either. Just an LCD screen with everything on it. Yea even up to rearward facing CCTV for parking. Probably no gear lever either. Just a switch for forwards, backwards, and stop. Maybe lo and Hi. Instead of an engine management computer, you have a battery management computer - or suite of them probably - integrated with the pack. And a drive computer coupled to the pedals and the motor control pack.
When you look at it all that a current car has that a BEV needs are suspension and steering and wheels. The rest apart from passnenger toys, is simply thrown away.
We meed an Issigonis to re-desing the whole car from the ground up basically, but it will work all right.

Ther have not been any *realistic* BEVs produced to date in more than tens of units. The T-zero is about the only one thats in any sort of production and that is restricted to California, as they are the only people who can fix it if the somewhat new technology breaks. Ther IS no history - yet - to guide us.

exactly. Low volume, wrong battery technology, and too heavy anyway to be worth having. Thats the HISTORY of electric cars. Its not the future.
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http://www.aptera.com /
Of course, I'd throw the stupid electric motor & batteries away and fit a Hyabusa engine, but that's just me ...
--
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Throw the entire thing away and buy something proper. I don't understand designs for road cars that have a track significantly wider than the body. It's just a waste of road space.
That looks like driving a plane that someone has pulled the wings off, but driving it everywhere in reverse.
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You are talking total tripe! The Toyota hybrid system is by far the best anyone has come up with. It is licenced to many other companies, including Ford.

Then look at this: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/08/the_hybrid_mini.php http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html

Cars will look different, be lighter and more aerodynamic, once they design around the new electric components.
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Doctor Drivel wrote:

ROFLMAO!!!
good thing I have finished my coffee.

Of course they will stoopid.
Once you cant use more than half a dozen componnents from your production line on the new car, it becomes sane to start again with a clean sheet.
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Fools do laugh at nothing at all.
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The tails to people's houses are one thing. But the substations and power beneath the streets is something else!
--
Roland Perry

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Roland Perry wrote:

But they are easier to upgrade, actually. Less of them than the consumers.
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Yes, it just means digging up every street. They did that round here for [renewing] the gas mains over the last three years.
--
Roland Perry

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Roland Perry wrote:

What doesn't these days?
They did that round here for

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> Domestically its a twelve hour charge overnight on cheap rate. Easy

That it might be, but I wonder if the local distribution grid could cope if lots of us pushed up our consumption. It's one thing for the supply to houses to be rated at 100A but quite another if we all draw 50A. That's apart from the generation issue.
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Wring bit of the infrastructure. The problem is having enough power delivered to the "socket in pole" and domestic equivalent.
--
Roland Perry

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Roland Perry wrote:

Its no worse than a small factory 3 phase supply.
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Listen.... the poles and sockets aren't the problem. Getting power to the poles *is*. Think a 300 space car park: ho much wiring and how many amps is that?
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Roland Perry

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Roland Perry wrote:

No worse than a medium factory.
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I'm surprised a medium factory would take that much power, but the most difficult part inside the car park is wiring up every bay to the feed.
--
Roland Perry

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Why would it matter - I assume people will be paying to use these 'poles'.
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Surely there are already metal poles in the ground wired for electricity in many car parks? You'd need thicker cabling to each of these new "poles", and many more circuits back to a substation, but I don't think this is going to be as much as a problem as the capacity issues further up.
If we give the car 15 Amps at 240V say, for a 200 place carpark, that's 3000A. Which is about the amperage at which you want to start considering a dedicated substation, and certainly one where you want multiple drops.
Perhaps it would make more sense to feed these poles at, say, 11kV and give them each 1/3A. You may want to transform that down in each pole, or else provide a safety interlock in the connector.
But, why are we doing this again?
Dan.
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