More on light bulbs ...

[Arfa Daily]

Following on from our discussions in the thread "If B&Q had a brain, they'd be dangerous ...", I'm getting more and more confused about this light bulb thing. Presumably, pearls have been banned in the EU because a small amount extra of the consumed power, results in heat rather than light. All pearl types seem to be available on line, due to the fact that the UK government did not enact this ban - apparently -, so it's actually still legal to sell them. Which then causes me to ask why no one in the 'real' rather than virtual world, still appears to be selling them. Is it just that they already closed off their supply chains, and are reluctant to restock, in case the ban suddenly comes into force ? There's money to be made for sure, as so many people still hate CFLs. So is it a case of making hay whilst the sun shines, for the online sellers ?

Which then brings me onto low voltage halogen downlighters. I'm talking here of the ones that are recessed into ceilings and that were very popular a few years back. Small reflector bulbs shaped like an Apollo Command Module, with two straight thin pins. I have a lot of these scattered throughout my house, and all, barring the one in the shower lighting/ extractor fan assembly, are rated at 20 watts per lamp. When bought in a set of three, these almost always came with a conventional iron cored transformer to power them, and when as a set of five, the 'transformer' was normally a small switchmode power supply. Absolutely everywhere sold the replacement lamps. You could buy them on a card of five for a quid at the pound shop. For sure, they didn't last as long as a branded type, but they were pretty fair. Now, you don't seem to be able to get 20s anywhere. 50 watters, yes. But 20s ? No ...

For anyone that understands electrics, fitting a 50 in place of a 20 isn't an option. We're talking two and a half times the current draw of a 20 watt. I dare say that the switchmode power supplies would probably fall over if presented with this additional load, but the iron cored transformers will do their level best to supply the extra current, resulting in both the transformer and potentially the wiring to the lampholders, both overheating. The fact that these downlights are fitted into the ceiling board, means that replacement with an alternative type (if there even was one) is not an option, so Joe Average is going to start fitting 50 watt lamps where he's taking blown 20s out from. Physically, they are identical, and of course, when trading power ratings of conventional mains bulbs, the currents involved are so low that there's no issue, so why should the average Joe believe that the situation is any different with low voltage bulbs ?

Are we potentially looking at a fire hazard here, or am I just being paranoid ? And if 20 watt bulbs of this type have also been quietly removed from the shelves of all the sheds and supermarkets, what are we going to do with all the downlighters, fitted by their millions, to houses all over the country ? Bigger pictures. Joined up thinking and all that ...

Arfa

[Andy Burns]

Small? At least 90% of the extra ... OK, we're not talking kilowatts.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I sort of found 35w to be more common than 20 - although the most common was 50. But then I've never bought a fitting supplied with a bulb for this sort of thing.

You can still get 20 watt ones - but not 3 for a quid.

was never too impressed with cheap ones - seemed not to last.

[Tim Downie]

Seems to be a similar situation with the GU10 bulbs as well. It's hard to find anything less that 50W and they're frequently sold at very low prices compared to the 20/25W bulbs. I'm guessing manufacturers and retailers have seen the writing on the wall with regard to the furture of these bulbs and are trying hard to unload stock.

Thankfully replaced all my GU10s with LED bulbs now (all 29 of them).

Tim

[Andrew May]

I like the way that the more expensive ones are advertised as BRANDED but they don't tell you what brand. Isn't that kinda the purpose of a brand.

[Andy Dingley]

It's like "Designer"

Presumably the others just evolved that way.

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:58:53 +0100 someone who may be "Arfa Daily" wrote this:-

A loud but small group claim they hate CFLs, the silent majority get on fine with them.

[Tim Streater]

SWMBO dislikes them, but it's mainly prejudice because we have some that take a while to crank out the lumens. Are more recent ones better in that regard - faster starting?

[Bill]

In message , Arfa Daily writes

Years ago I was involved in the replacement of a large reception desk. The architect specified the lamp fittings as a track from which dangled individual cables from which hung biggish, heavy, black painted cylindrical transformers into which the bulbs plugged. Each one also had a designer outer covering in a tasteful (joke) shade of yellow.

One by one the transformers failed, so I looked up dichroic in the dictionary and discovered that the bulbs were designed to send the light downwards and the heat upwards. No wonder the transformers failed.

We brought in the rep for the manufacturer, who had lots of glossy trendy brochures and the info that the track and its connectors were now obsolete. From what I remember, we went out and bought some cheap standard track and replaced the lot.

Looking round houses when son and daughter were looking to buy, we found that lots of the tarting up of decent old houses involved banks of these bulbs stuck into holes in the ceiling.

I'm afraid I was always rather negative.... Just an anecdote, but maybe slightly relevant.

[Terry Fields]

I'm about to be in the same boat.

Would you be so kind as to offer guidance on what types of GU10 LEDs are best for what job (kitchen, office, general), and where they might be found?

TIA

TF

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 12:43:04 +0100 someone who may be Tim Streater wrote this:-

In round terms they can either start rapidly or last longer. Some are marketed as rapid start, such as

should one want to use it in say a toilet or on the stairs.

[Bob Minchin]

I agree that switch mode transformers will self shut down if overloaded but I am pretty certain that the older iron cored types will have a thermal trip built in and so the chances of a fire are slim. Presumably the lights will go on and off as the transformer heats and cools.

What seems to be overlooked by the banning of incandescant lamps to various types is that the heat from the lamps helps to heat the home and for quite a few months of the year, that heat will have to come form other sources.

Bob

[Huge]

A "majority" *so* silent in fact, as to be completely invisible. Mainly because they're inside your head.

[Tim Downie]

I used an ebay seller who I found very good.

our bathroom (which has 11 GU10 spots) we used these in the "day white" colour balance. These lean a little towards the blue but are much better than most LED lights I've seen Certainly they are good enough in our bathroom and they're cheap.

For our kitchen/dinning room where I wanted a warmer white and we needed brighter bulbs we went for the 78 LED bulbs in the "warm white" to replace a mix of 25 & 50W GU10s. We find these very satisfactory in terms of colour and brightness. In brightness they seem to be somewhere between the old bulbs. Rather more expensive but then you don't want to buy a lot of bulbs that you hate the colour of.

I would certainly avoid the "cool white" bulbs though unless you're really after maximum brightness at minimum power. You do have to accept that by choosing a lower colour temperature you're going to get a less efficient bulb. You might need to experiment to find out what works for you and in which room.

I've no connection with the seller, just a satisfied customer (so far!).

Tim

[The Natural Philosopher]

I agree. I had hoped to use them in places where they might be appropriate, but have foud them to be expensive and unreliable, and certainly with early ones, very slow to start and very poor light output.

They are somewhat better these days, but they are still crap compared to almost anything else.

And, in terms of green issues, almost completely irrelevant.

In terms of my personal green fooprint, when I look at what has REALLY made a difference..

- Not having kids.

- developing and using the internet.

- buying good stuff seldom.

- Not buying stuff at all.

- insulating the house.

- not taking foreign holidays.

Lightbulbs simply don't feature at all.

[Scott M]

If that's true, which it probably isn't once you've ignored the ignorant section of any majority, then it'll change soon anyway.

Modern ones are lasting ever less time - and that's the 'named' ones. The no-name cheapies that are starting to appear in PoundShopLand will be worse. And that's what will drive disgruntilisation with them. Not the 'orrible colour cast of some. Not the lied-about power consumption. Not the inability to fit 90% of light fittings. Not the increased consumption of materials to make them. Not even the ridiculous pricing[2].

And, FWIW, in their place I like CFLs. Great for high traffic areas like kitchens or hallways where they're going to be on for a reasonable time. Hopeless for everything else.

[1] although that's only of concern to the grid. [2] I had a friend who spent more on buying and repeatedly replacing full price CFLs than he would have ever saved on electricity[3]. [3] And anyone who says it's not just about saving money really doesn't understand the side-effects of these things.

[Huge]

But it's a religion to greenies. It has nothing to do with rationality.

[Terry Fields]

Thanks for taking the time to reply and for the useful information.

That site certainly contained some interesting stuff, not the least of which was the explanation of colour temperature!

TF

[Andy Burns]

I've used CFLs for well over 20 years in every room apart from the lounge where I have always used a dimmer[1]. I really don't have a problem with them being a little slower to reach full brightness, it's not as though they emit NO light for the first few seconds, and in the bedroom I like the fact they don't shock your eyeballs with the full

100W when you reach for the pull switch in the small hours. [1] I did try a couple of the self dimming CFLs but they're not brilliant, the colour spectrum varies with the light level, they buzz at low brightness, one has died quickly (i.e. within 2 years).

[Huge]

So, that's one. Any more?