Amazon orders 100,000 electric delivery trucks,

[Ralph Mowery]

Most likely because it needs a hotter or more powerful primer. That is a lot of powder and it is some slow burning also.

[gfretwell]

That says the people in the 91-99% (> $132k-$361k) paid 32.2% of the taxes, the top 1% paid 37.3% so the people 91% and over paid almost

70% of the taxes. It sounds pretty progressive to me, in spite of what the democrats say. Unfortunately the uber rich probably got away fairly cheap because their money is sheltered income from sources that is harder to pin down.

[invalid unparseable]

Which clearly isnt the middle class as Ralph claimed.

And from memory he is one of those that believes that there are far fewer in the middle class in america than there used to be, tho I may be remembering that wrong.

Yep. In spades with that other striking stat that the bottom HALF pay no federal income tax.

Most of it with the stinking rich isnt actually income. they are stinking rich because of the number of shares they own in the operation they created with those like Gates, Brin, Zuckerberg, Murdoch, Cook etc or ended up with like with Zuckerberg's ex.

[Ralph Mowery]

Yes, I do believe there are fewer in the middle class than a number of years back and there are less in the middle class every year. I am what should be classified as middle class, but was still low enough that I got a big reduction in insurance when Obama care statred. Before OBC I paid about $ 250 for health insurance, after OBC I should have paid over $ 700, but was in the class that I still only paid around $ 250 and the government made up the rest.

While I am no means stinking rich I do fall in the class you mentioned about the Gates and Zuckerberg. I have a good bit in an IRA mutual fund. It makes a good percentage of return , more than my RMD is right now. By being in an IRA it is not taxed. It is money that While I could get it, I don't. Just take out some spending money . If I took it all out at one time the government would likely got over half of it. The Gates and others own much stock that while it goes up in value and their net worth goes up, much of it is not taxed.

They way they are talking bout Trump now is he is really broke,but still seems to live very well. I remmeber probably 30 years ago he filed for bankrupty and the courts still gave him more spending money per month than most of us will ever see in a year,maybe ten years. The Clintons said they were broke when they left the White House. I would not mind being broke like that.

[gfretwell]

Who do you think the cheats are? Is it one billionaire who shaves off a few percent or is it a million guys working for cash and not paying any taxes at all, maybe even collecting welfare? I have no problem making them all pay like the rest of us but the IRS will go after the little guy first because there is more bang for the investigative buck. They also seldom have the resources to fight back. If they figure out Trump got the $72 million refund illegitimately, so be it, go get it back, with penalties and interest but my guess is his lawyers have skirted around the bloated tax code, written by billionaires, that makes it legal enough that it is not criminal.

[gfretwell]

That all gets back to what "middle class" means. Most people who say they are middle class are actually in the top 85-90%. The actual "middle" is pretty close to the line where you don't pay income tax. At $100k, married couple, no kids no mortgage, taking the standard deduction only pays around 11-12% and that is way above the middle of anything, unless you live along the west coast or in the Acela corridor.

Most of their "wealth" is in unrealized capital gains although a few of them cash that in regularly and live pretty large. Unfortunately many of them are living large as a corporate expense and don't pay taxes on that.

[Scott Lurndal]

Classic "False Dilemma" argument. Particularly since you don't actually point to any evidence supporting your "million guys working for cash and not paying any taxes at all".

For the few that do work for cash under the table, they don't make enough to pay federal income taxes, and they still pay all the other taxes (sales, excise, fuel, telecommunications, et alia).

Try again.

[Ralph Mowery]

There seems to be around 4 million words in the tax code and statues. Roughly the same as in 5 of the King Jamse Bible. I doubt that any one person has ever read it all and understands it. Most of the billionaires have lawyers and book keepers to do their taxes so they are probably not really lible for much of anything but paying the fines if ever caught not paying their taxes.

I remember a number of years back that the IRS determined that if a restraunt did so much business the waiters should have so much in tips and were charged on that ammount. That was suppose to make them 'honest' about what they made in tips. There are probably lots of trade people like plumbers or small car repair shops that will do a job and if paid cash, never report it. They just have to be smart enough not to do too many cash no tax jobs.

I am getting ready to have a metal garage built. The builders of the concrete slab told me if I fill out some kind of tax form they can probably knock off around $ 1000 in tax on a $ 15000 dollar job. Before someone says something about that slab being way too much, the land slopes about 5 feet from front to back and will take a lot of digging and filling in, so a $ 3000 job on flat land turns into a major project.

[invalid unparseable]

Problem is that there is no evidence of that.

Middle class isnt determined by your income, it's the work you do if you are still working and the social class you are in even when you arent working.

So say the wife of a bank manager whose husband completely stuffed up their personal investments and then died without any life insurance who has to rely on just social security is still middle class even if she only has the social security as her entire income.

And someone who is say day labour on an oil drilling rig or drives a haulpak in an iron ore mine or coal mine is still working class even if they are very well paid.

[invalid unparseable]

I know the cheats are Murdoch, Amazon, GE etc who claim to have all their income in tax havens like the Bahamas etc.

It's a lot more than just the one billionaire.

Those are clearly tax cheats. And the small business operators who claim their boats etc as a tax deduction for the boat that has nothing to do with the business etc

[Ralph Mowery]

I guess it all depends on what the deifintiion of middle class is (as Clinton would say). Yes, the banker that falls ill and can not pay his bills is middle class. I am maybe misusing the definition and should maybe say middle income. So I am not middle class, or maybe I am as I have an associate degree in electronic engineering. I will recalibrate my words (as Obama said) and say I am in the middle income range.

[invalid unparseable]

We'll see...

That one is too obvious to need evidence, drug dealers, hookers etc etc etc.

Don?t believe that with drug dealers, hookers, small business people, mom & pop stores etc etc etc.

You don?t know that either.

No need to.

[invalid unparseable]

Yes, but its never been just your income.

That's bullshit with managers, small business owners, teachers, paramedics etc etc etc

And even with your definition of middle class, there is no evidence that the number of those is shrinking anyway.

That's not what the word middle in middle class means.

See above.

Its real wealth.

And plenty more just get their operation to pay for how they live.

In fact most of them do,

[invalid unparseable]

I'm not convinced that the number of those on middle incomes has dropped in say the last decade or so.

Yep, engineers are middle class.

Gets more complicated with bowman who was a truck driver for quite a while.

I can't think of anyone in this group who is working class or upper class either.

Yes, but I don't agree that the number who are in the middle income range has dropped in say the last decade or two.

[gfretwell]

If you think the only people who work for cash are landscapers and odd job painters, you are not paying attention. You ignore all of the pimps, drug dealers, and other people on the shady side of the law along with guys who have a real job but work nights and weekends working off the books. The guy who shot my pool did it for cash. He got $7000 for a weekend's work that he split with a couple of those marginally documented guys you are thinking of. The probably got $200-300 each. I bought the hardware, concrete and steel. The 2 guys who put the finish on got $4000 for an evening's work but they provided a couple hundred dollars worth of material ... that may have been mungo from other jobs.

[Ralph Mowery]

From a chart here it seems the upper income population has gone up about

20 % the middle income down about 20 % and the lower income stayed the same starting back in 1970.

[invalid unparseable]

Just heard this cute tune sympathetic to the rich today:

[gfretwell]

Most economists whop track things like this say the decline started in

71-2 but it is still the basic start and the numbers are undisputable. The middle class wages have been flat and benefits declined to the point of insignificance for most. You can say it started with Nixon's wage and price controls, progressing through Carter's "Malaise" and then a serious rise in technology that started making worker bee employees less valuable. Then you got to the Bush/Clinton "Good Quartly statements at any cost mentality" that really started throttling the corporate safety net, pension plans and health plans all in the race for a short term gain. By then the true middle class was screwed. Your old job may not be there or we have let technology take over so much of it, "Pedro here can do it and he will do it for a third of what we paid you". A quick example. My wife's family are/were solid UAW for 3 generations. Her Nephew got a job right out of high school and made $65000 on his first year (with overtime). She still has an aunt making $45 bucks an hour putting widgets together and the girl next to he makes $16. She may already be gone but she was pretty much the last of the Mohicans because they pushed the rest out. The skill necessary had dropped to the point that anyone could do it because of a machine.

The real question is what is the average working stiff going to do for a living if they are not in a trade? (Doctor, Lawyer, Nurse, Plumber, Electrician or HVAC tech). I would even worry a little about doctors if they don't have a specialty. GPs are being replaced by Techs and Nurses. I haven't seen a PCP in 3 years, it is always a Phyicion Assistant or a Nurse Practioner. OTOH If Tele medicine catches on, your doctor might be in Mumbai.

[rbowman]

I'm just an educated red neck. Economically I may fall in the middle class but culturally I don't consider myself middle class.

"You think you're so clever and classless and free, but you're still f****ng peasants as far as I can see.'

Lennon must have run out of happy pills when he wrote 'Working class hero'.

[rbowman]

Somehow I always found a business related event to justify a vacation. Three or four hours at SEMICON and two weeks seeing the rest of California...