Consumer Product Safety Comm. to discuss proposed SawStop technology safety rule

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I'm not quite sure why, but I think we've all gotten a little heated on this discussion so let me offer my apologies to anyone that I've offended. I'm reasonably sure that if any of us met in person and shared our views over a beer, the discussion would have been much less difficult.
I'll post that picture of the accident I was it, it's mostly a conversation piece at this point, but I do use it to emphasize the lives that seat belts save, mine definitely being one of them, so maybe that's why I'm particular about it.
Dave Moore
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Upscale wrote:

If things didn't get heated, then you'd sorta wonder if there was any passion behind one's position. :-) I think that it was a good discussion and it was valuable to hear the various viewpoints on this specific issue. Plus, no one lost any body parts during this thread. I'm not a beer-drinker, but I'd sip an iced tea with you any day.
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wrote:

I have heard several times in these debates that manufacturers don't want this technology because it will hurt their profits. I don't understand. If everyone had to redesign their equipment, eliminate their low end saws and install sawstops on the rest, why would profits drop. They would simply ALL raise their prices sifficient to ensure the same proofits continue on lower volume/higher priced sales. There would clearly be a lot fewer saws sold, those only producing low-end saws would, by definition, go out of business, but the big boys would still sell saws just at higher prices with higher individual gross profit margins and market equalibreum would be reached at the price point where everyone is satisfied with the level of profits - just like it is now (you know the law of supply and demand - they will produce enough saws to meet demand, but demand is based on price and price must include adequate profit). A lot of people in this group (like me) who use benchtop saws or BT3000s or Shopsmiths would, once those wore out, simply quit doing woodworking and take up golf because we didn't have $1,000 laying around for a low end "safe" saw.
Dave Hall
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And you doubt that would effect profits? If they're not selling saws, they're not making, maintaining a certain profit level. In fact, a business needs to grow to survive. That means it needs to increase profit as time goes on or it will eventually die. Just maintaining the status quo is not enough for investors anymore. That's my take on it anyway.
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wrote in message

Now I think that last line says what's just under the surface of this argument. How many of you will think long and hard about giving up a hobby that you may be looking forward to enjoying in your retirement years? Oh sure for now it's just the TS.... but what's next? Your CMS, BS, SC, Router, Planer,jointer? $100 here $250 there $75 over there. ( amounts pulled out of a Ballantines bottle). At what $ amount do you give up something you love to do because some one lobbied the Gov to mandate a product/ products ( as some one else stated he has more SS things for other tools on the back burner) and in effect financially forced you out of your hobby? Now I'm sure if all this happens there will still be people that will take up this hobby/ passion and benefit from these devices, but what about the ones that are looking forward to enjoying this hobby on a fixed income in there twilight years but can't because Gov& Ins co's say without it no coverage? I know this last bit and the following is a stretch and a bit of a rant on my part..... but then who thought PETA or gun control and their like would change so much of what our ancestors took for granted. Feel free to insert the Canadian / USA or any other countries versions of them in the above. I did. :-
Jim
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wrote:

I'm making. But, in the fairness of the debate I'll agree that nobody follows exact procedure 100% of the time. But obviously that just goes to show that one can even be a bit sloppy and still not have problems. Think about Ed's point way up there at the top - -just around his neighborhood there are a half dozen saws. So, while 55,000 injuries sounds like a big number we have to consider that there are millions of T/S out there. It just goes to demonstrate that injuries happen to the arrogant - those that either don't understand procedure or those who don't care to follow such..

injuries are resultant of careless operation, not due to the lack of a device.
I'm not that down on him, just his methods. Obviously, the company is doing poorly. Be honest, if the SS item was flying of the shelf he would be content. I would guess that his business plan is in serious peril and thus the last ditch effort to save the company by using the back door. You can imagine the costs involved in tooling up for Mfg - huge! My guess is that his efforts will result in higher standards of safety on these and other machines. However, I believe that will happen w/o his technology at the forefront. So, if you are correct, he will be happy if the standards get raised even if nobody else needs his technology. Frankly, I think you are being a bit naive on this point about his true intentions. Not that I blame him, but lets call a spade a spade.
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In all honesty, I think it's reached the point where it will not be mandated, because it won't be necessary. Robin at Lee Valley has admitted that they're replacing all their table saws with Sawstops. I believe he explained it as being a necessary business decision based on cost to not do otherwise - re. possible insurance repercussions. Please correct me if I'm wrong there Robin. So, I have to assume it's going to become a major part of the industry anyway, probably sooner than later. Right, now this is Canadian I'm talking about, but I don't think there's so much difference between Canada and the USA as far as insurance goes.
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wrote:

Well, I don't know Robin and based on the business he has built he's surely made some sound business decisions, but I feel he is wrong here. A few quarters will tell...year on year sell through. And, while I am not a lawyer, I don't think retailers are culpable in liability cases....(?)

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wrote in message

Yes you did, you just worded it differently.

"They won't buy my device so I'll just force everyone to, so there". Waaaa Waaaaa Waaaa He has a dispute with other manufacturers and seeing that he can't win there, takes it out on the public. You and King George would get along just fine.

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wrote:

Yes inventing things and bringing them to market is tough but that still doesn't excuse pressing for a law to mandate your invention before it is really proven to be useful. This saw stop is one example, my example of the AFCI is another. They are actually doing beta testing of new AFCI designs in the customer's home, under the power of law. I see the attempt at getting CPSC mandating of this saw stop as the same thing.
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My apologies. I thought you were trying to justify the practice.

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Accepted and appreciated. If this invention is the greatest thing since the invention of the circular saw the world will beat a path to his door. We don't need the government involved.
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True. Apparently, he doesn't think it is.

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Finding the keyboard operational Larry Blanchard entered:

Absolutly zero and no one is accusing the SawStop people of doing anything illegal or unethical. Look. Like it or not SawStop exists and is a practical product. It is commercially available. Based upon what I have seen it won't be long before commercial shops will be required by their insurance companies to have them or a similar product. Manufacturers of all powered cutting tools will folllow up by making some kind of safety device that will minimize accidents or be priced out of business. Bob
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Larry Blanchard wrote:

efforts are _illegal_, unles you regard lobbying the government as illegal. As for unethical, that's sort of a judgement call: there may be very good reasons to mandate an important safety feature on tablesaws.
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But I see this (the meeting) as the necessary political fluff. The collective lobby of the major mfg's will almost certainly water down what comes out of these panel diiscussions.
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R. Pierce Butler wrote:

At least 2% (4 out of 200) where I work have a TS at home, if you applied 2% to 300million people that would be 6 million saws in the US.
Like most I'm not keen on being forced into buying something but I am very hard-headed (proven by the fact the government didn't make me wear a helmet to ride a bike as a kid).
I did check out the saw online and wonder how good it is. Looks like it is about 30% more than a Unisaw but is the quality close? That extra lifting mechanism that allows the blade to drop when triggered seems like a good place to have unnecessary slop in the machine.
decent video here: http://www.workbenchmagazine.com/main/wb295-cabinetsaws01.html
How many have tried the sawstop? and does it compare in quality to other cabinet saws?
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.Apparently the SawStop surpasses the Delta and is more comparable in build quality to the Powermatic 66.

E-mail Robin at LeeValley. He has bought several that are not for sale. Several have posted here in the past with favorable reports overall.
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most kids don't own saws. Assuming an average household size of 3, then 300 million people is 100 million households thus 2 million saws. Now, after the math homework, back to your original programming....

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Dave Hall wrote:

Most of the people I work with are children or at the very least childish.
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