Consumer Product Safety Comm. to discuss proposed SawStop technology safety rule

[The Other Funk]

Finding the keyboard operational Joe Bemier entered:

If you are a commercial operation, you will have to weigh the cost of the technology vs. any increase of insurance premiums and you probably want to have a spare cartridge or two around. As a home user, well as another poster points out, there has been no reported instance of anyone being injured while following proper procedures. so make sure you follow them. And as a home user, how many tablesaws are you going to buy in your life time? If you read SawStops web site, there is a disable switch. I guess thats a use at your own risk. I am not going to address the issue of personal freedom. You have your posistion and I have mine. We'll leave it at that. Bob

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-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times

[bremen68]

I stopped over at the saw stop site and took a look at their products. Interesting little gizmo, expensive, but very interesting.

I think if you're looking for an absolutely safe saw (from the blade anyway) this puppy just might be the ticket... Though I didn't see saftey bumpers on the corners, soft side cushions on the case, or an airbag type appliance incase of kick backs. And WHAT ABOUT THOSE BLASTED SPINTERS??

Ok I'll be serious for a moment, well as serious as I can be anyway... It looks like somebody put a lot of thought into this and if it works as claimed will save many a person from having to answer questions from their grandkids about why they have to take their shoes off to count to ten. However, with all new technology it's expensive. And anytime you ask a typical woodworker to lay out more cash...Well, let's just say it's not a good thing and leave it at that.

As for mandating that it be installed on all saws. That's an entirely different thing. Now you're encroaching on our rights to injure and maim ourselves in creative and painful ways as we see fit. I agree with everybody above who says "if it's that good a system, it will sell it's self and everybody will install it" The price will come down and like also stated above it will be just like any other feature "standard" on the saws.

Trying to mandate something in the US does tend to raise most folks hackles, we're a bit stiff necked about things when somebody comes up and says "This is how you're gonna do this, by the way you don't have a choice". Even if it's for our own good, we tend to be stuborn types.

I am kinda curious about a few technical aspects of the system. Not everybody keeps their shop in absolute perfect condition, some aren't weather tight, some are damp basements... How does this system handle adverse conditions. If it's relying on monitoring an electrical current through the blade will rust effect it?

What about nails? (I realize we should inspect our wood etc, but it does happen) Will hitting a nail in a piece of wood cause the safety to trip? I'm thinking hitting metal will cause a rather abrupt spike in conductivity and there by blow the stop. A block of aluminum hitting a spinning blade means that blade is toast, at $70 a reload plus $50 (or more) for a new blade, that's an expensive mistake. Does the saw function if you don't reload the cartridge?

For industry I'm thinking they're doomed to have to incorporate it. Insurance companies will make it happen if nobody else does. As with all things it will eventually trickle down to consumer level products. But just like the gaurds that are supposed to be on our saws now, how many are actually in place? I think that that will be the fate of this device as well for most of them.

My humbe two pennies worth of rambling... Take it as you will. :-)

[Swingman]

IIRC, wasn't there an interim attempt at using legislation to force the issue between the times mentioned above?

My take is that a lot of the anger/resistance/teeth gnashing is directly attritubutable to that previous attempt, which did appear to have a component of lawyerly arrogance parading as altruism.

In any event ... what you can bet your bottom dollar on is that BIG insurance will eventually call the shots.

[gfretwell]

A case could certainly be made that if they had mandatory weight tresting and rationer food to fat people they would be a lot heathier ... or so the legend goes but that is not the way Americans want to live. These discussions are the best argument against national healh care. Do you really want the people who run the drug war, running a fat food, hazardous activity war?

[Upscale]

No, that certainly would not be the North American way. I don't know, I guess it comes down to what you've experienced growing up. I know that if I'd not been born in Canada and born in the bulk of other countries around the world, my health problems would have killed me over 20 years ago. So I admit it, I feel lucky in some ways and certainly more appreciative of our society than some. I know that clouds my judgement, but it's who I am. Sure, there's lots of things I don't like about Canada, especially in the disability arena, but it's better than most, so for the most part I think there's been a good combination of personal choice and government involvement. I do know that I'd feel really stupid for a long time if I cut some fingers off on a tablesaw. That's something I'd have a really difficult time getting over.

[The Other Funk]

Finding the keyboard operational Larry Blanchard entered:

It's ok by me for you to do all of the above. But if tomorrow someone comes up with a way to keep all these activities fun and to keep you safer, I would want you to use it. And if the government wants to make it manditory, I would expect you to either write your senators and congressman.to protest or not, as you wish. BTW, I scuba dive. I make sure my gear is up to date and maintained. I also follow all the proper procedures. I am not against activities that have a risk associated with them, I just don't like cleaning up after people who take irresponsible ones Bob

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-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times

[Joe Bemier]

You're getting carried away. I wear m a seatbelt and that is not the debate. My point is that the two are hardly comparable. Thats the point Leuf, that operation of a TS is not subject to other parties. Unless of course you cannot find a reasonable argument and so want to talk about black ice.

[Dave Bugg]

It's the Poutine, dammit; blame the Poutine. :-)

[The Other Funk]

Finding the keyboard operational Dave Bugg entered:

Missed that Dave. My apologies. And I don't have an example. Bob

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-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times

[Jim Northey]

Now I think that last line says what's just under the surface of this argument. How many of you will think long and hard about giving up a hobby that you may be looking forward to enjoying in your retirement years? Oh sure for now it's just the TS.... but what's next? Your CMS, BS, SC, Router, Planer,jointer? $100 here $250 there $75 over there. ( amounts pulled out of a Ballantines bottle). At what $ amount do you give up something you love to do because some one lobbied the Gov to mandate a product/ products ( as some one else stated he has more SS things for other tools on the back burner) and in effect financially forced you out of your hobby? Now I'm sure if all this happens there will still be people that will take up this hobby/ passion and benefit from these devices, but what about the ones that are looking forward to enjoying this hobby on a fixed income in there twilight years but can't because Gov& Ins co's say without it no coverage? I know this last bit and the following is a stretch and a bit of a rant on my part..... but then who thought PETA or gun control and their like would change so much of what our ancestors took for granted. Feel free to insert the Canadian / USA or any other countries versions of them in the above. I did. :-

Jim

[gfretwell]

I would beat the shit out oif them with whatever I was cutting. Is this something your "friends" do to you?

[Upscale]

You're very apt at answering a question but not really answering it.

[gfretwell]

You should be the one who agrees the most that government is NOT the answer. In the 60s SCUBA was a totally unregulated sport and just about the time when the government was sticking it's nose in everything the SCUBA industry itself decided to clean up their act and did it wioth ABSOLUTELY ZERO government input. There is no law about who can buy compressed air but without a PADI card (or the equivilent) nobody will fill your tank, you can't get on a dive boat or go out with a guide. It became one of the safest sports in the country and they did it all themselves. If the saw manufacturers want to develop a safer technology, so be it but I don't want the government ramming something down our throats because some little old lady at CPSC who has never seen a table saw decrees it. If we want to continue the seat belt analogy I only have to point to the 1974 cars. Another stupid idea that lasted one year.

[Upscale]

Another "non" answer. There's no guarantee that the industry will mandate this new safety feature and considering the history of some of the pencil pushers in high places of corporate finance, the distinct possibility is that it could be panned. In the meantime, people suffer.

Doesn't this suggest something to you? Knowing the government was sticking their nose in things, they decided to clean it up themselves. Can you honestly say it would have happened if the government hadn't been snooping?

You're going to have to do better than that if you're going to argue this point.

[gfretwell]

It was a pretty silly example of how we would get hurt. Almost as dumb as saying my rollerskates hit a wet spot and I slipped. Maybe you are just jumpier than me but I make sure I am firmly planted and not in a position where I will slip and slide my hand into the blade. I use push sticks and a sled if that is appropriate. Maybe that is why I do have all my digits. It occurs to me most "accidents" are because people get in a hurry and don't plan each cut. You should know where the woodis , how you will control it and where your fingers are going to be before, during and after you cut. I am a lot more afraid of that blade than I am of someone going "BOO" behind me. I might not even notice them. I certainly don't pay any attention to a loud noise somewhere else in the shop. Whatever fell, broke or exploded will still be fell, broke or exploded when I get the saw turrned off. Maybe it is just tuinnel vision. Keep you mind on the work My grandfather taught me and my dad enforced it, now it is just habit.

[gfretwell]

Coinsidering this was in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations before there was a CPSC or any other real federal safety organization I say no, they just did it because it was the right thing to do. It is a lot more likely the saw manufactirers would do something themselves these days. We have lawyers on TV now asking stupid people if they want to blame someone for their mistakes and get rich. That was illegal in the 60s

[Leuf]

You said "I wear a SB *only* due to the risk posed by other drivers." and that is the same argument you make about the saw. You follow all the proper procedures all the time and if everyone did like you no one would ever be injured. That's a fairy tale.

As Nahm says it, learning how to use your power tools properly will greatly reduce the risk of personal injury. Note how he says greatly reduce, not eliminate? It's a question of numbers. The odds of something happening during any given cut is very very small. The number of cuts made is very very large.

If we can get another line of defense in there for a reasonable cost, it certainly makes sense to me to at least consider mandating it be on all saws. And it may be that the board sees it the way you do, that the current measures are sufficient to provide adequate safety and no mandate for the device is necessary.

Just out of curiousity, how would you feel about a requirement that you must pass a safety course covering proper procedures to buy a saw?

-Leuf

[Leuf]

My Dad actually, so no, I can't kill him. And I don't mean he intentionally tries to scare me, it's just that when you're working by yourself and totally focused on your cut and can't hear anything and then suddenly there's someone else nearby you get startled.

I had to make sure the saw was pointed at the main door so I could see him come in. I also keep the lights that are on the main switch off, supposedly to save electricity because it also turns on all the rest of the lights in the basement. When that light is on I know to be on high alert for the wandering tool thief.

-Leuf

[Joe Bemier]

Well, over 30 years of nearly daily use and I have not as much as a nick -honest. I think that might be the issue. Maybe some of you guys are very intimidated by a TS and thus the feeling you need this device. And, that is why it should be a consumer option and not a gov mandate. For my part, I respect the machine and understand how to reduce my risk to only a freak accident...something in the statistical neighborhood of a clear sky lightning strike. You realize that cars could be safer than what we have today. We could mandate rollcages. What if a small subset of drivers started driving around w/o seatbelts and getting injured. Would you agree that we should put roll cages in all cars just because these ppl cannot follow proper procedure. I am willing to bet that the very same ppl who are at risk for injury on a TS are at risk for all kind of other injuries. Put a device on a TS and these ppl will cut themselves on a chainsaw. Put the device on the chainsaw and they will decide to have a BBQ in the garage with the door closed. You can look at the whole firearm picture for some very good likeness....i.e., guns don't kill ppl, ppl kill ppl.....or something like that. Same thing- you have thousands upon thousands of individuals (clearly the larger group by far) who operate a TS w/o injury.

Well, I am never in favor of more bureaucracy. And, as the doc pointed out many of the injuries he sees are experienced guys. That leads me to believe that it is not for lack of understanding that these accidents occur, but rather due to deviation from proper methods. If ppl were getting hurt while following proper procedure then I would probably feel different about this device.

Extra Note: In the past few days since this thread heated up I have taken note of my own actions while using the TS. I have found that my hands are never beyond the front fence rail while making cuts. I do this w/o thinking about it. My push sticks are 2-3 feet (long grain) and I never go for my cut piece or the scrap until the blade has stopped. I do these things automatically w/o thinking about them.

[Joe Bemier]

Frankly, Leuf, those are very weak arguments to put forth in the interest of Gov mandating a technology that adds significant cost to the machinery. Maybe the big heavy thing falling over will do more harm to you than the TS could.

Years ago my wife did something similar and it never happened again as I sat her down and explained the potential for danger. On the job can be a challenge at times. Other subs walking behind me, etc, etc. But its only when I don't pay proper attention to my environment that things get risky. With all due respect to your Dad, you need to make some noise with him. Like many other pieces of equipment in our daily lives, a TS can go from innocuous to dangerous in a moments notice...as based on the negligence of the operator.

[Upscale]

And that's exactly the type of attitude that will bite you in the butt one day, that it's unlikely you might have an accident. Would you say there's quite a few experienced woodworkers on this newsgroup?. Sure most of them might still have all their fingers, but I wonder how many would admit to experiencing a kick back, either small or large? I admit to it and I'm certainly not accident prone.

A warped piece of wood, one that has an unseen split in it and there you go, a kick back whizzing by your head. That's an accident. How many people are using contactor saws with a motor hanging out the back of it driven by a pulley? A falling piece of wood into that spinning rubber pulley and a piece of wood gets whipped into a wall somewhere. How many might admit to that? Have you ever once removed your splitter and blade guard to cut a piece of wood? Automatically, you're open to some type of accident. It's fine that you're very careful, but it's just not humanely possible to take everything into account every time. To say otherwise is completely unrealistic. Considering the huge amount of tablesaws out there, even a small percentage of injuries adds up to a large amount when you tally them all. It's only common sense to minimize that amount.