Consumer Product Safety Comm. to discuss proposed SawStop technology safety rule

[lwasserm]

Meat slicer at the deli?

[bremen68]

I stopped over at the saw stop site and took a look at their products. Interesting little gizmo, expensive, but very interesting.

I think if you're looking for an absolutely safe saw (from the blade anyway) this puppy just might be the ticket... Though I didn't see saftey bumpers on the corners, soft side cushions on the case, or an airbag type appliance incase of kick backs. And WHAT ABOUT THOSE BLASTED SPINTERS??

Ok I'll be serious for a moment, well as serious as I can be anyway... It looks like somebody put a lot of thought into this and if it works as claimed will save many a person from having to answer questions from their grandkids about why they have to take their shoes off to count to ten. However, with all new technology it's expensive. And anytime you ask a typical woodworker to lay out more cash...Well, let's just say it's not a good thing and leave it at that.

As for mandating that it be installed on all saws. That's an entirely different thing. Now you're encroaching on our rights to injure and maim ourselves in creative and painful ways as we see fit. I agree with everybody above who says "if it's that good a system, it will sell it's self and everybody will install it" The price will come down and like also stated above it will be just like any other feature "standard" on the saws.

Trying to mandate something in the US does tend to raise most folks hackles, we're a bit stiff necked about things when somebody comes up and says "This is how you're gonna do this, by the way you don't have a choice". Even if it's for our own good, we tend to be stuborn types.

I am kinda curious about a few technical aspects of the system. Not everybody keeps their shop in absolute perfect condition, some aren't weather tight, some are damp basements... How does this system handle adverse conditions. If it's relying on monitoring an electrical current through the blade will rust effect it?

What about nails? (I realize we should inspect our wood etc, but it does happen) Will hitting a nail in a piece of wood cause the safety to trip? I'm thinking hitting metal will cause a rather abrupt spike in conductivity and there by blow the stop. A block of aluminum hitting a spinning blade means that blade is toast, at $70 a reload plus $50 (or more) for a new blade, that's an expensive mistake. Does the saw function if you don't reload the cartridge?

For industry I'm thinking they're doomed to have to incorporate it. Insurance companies will make it happen if nobody else does. As with all things it will eventually trickle down to consumer level products. But just like the gaurds that are supposed to be on our saws now, how many are actually in place? I think that that will be the fate of this device as well for most of them.

My humbe two pennies worth of rambling... Take it as you will. :-)

[Leuf]

Wait.. I assumed when power was off so was the detection. So if I accidently brush against the blade while I'm cleaning off the table it fires and I have to buy a new blade and replace the cartridge? What happens when I go to change blades? I assume there's an override, but what worries me is if it's easy to override and a false detection means I am out $150-200 that I'd just leave the sucker in the override position when it's not on, and then the one time I forget to switch it back that's when something happens.

-Leuf

[Leuf]

One other thing is that while Sawstop says there's no way to upgrade an old saw with the technology, I can't see as how all the cast iron of the top and the motor can't be reused, and those combined are a substantial proportion of the cost of the saw, and the weight of the machine. And of course the fence can be reused. So I don't see why the manufacturers couldn't offer just the cabinet and guts as an upgrade path.

-Leuf

[Mike M]

I think your right Leon, it will be awhile I think before its big with the home consumer, but for shops the potential insurance savings and what OSHa may adopt for rules I think you'll eventually see a lot of it and expanded to other tools.

Mike M

[Larry Blanchard]

lts=A0were=A0adding

Mine included. And I wouldn't think of riding my motorcycle without a = helmet.=20 But it should be my decision, not forced on me.

Another of my "liberal" opinions :-).

--=20 It's turtles, all the way down

[Leon]

Good point. From what I gather the trunion and blade brake are basically the only differences. Oh yeah, I looked at the owners manual and IIRC there a lot of lock out sensors and a computer chip that monitors settings, and other functions.

[Leon]

No, from what I uynderstand the system is activated and then you turn on the saw. Turning off the saw motor does not disable the system so that you are protected during spin down. After it stops it does not fire. I would imagine an accidental firing of the cartride in to a stopped blade may not do harm to either unless the cartridge is a one time fire piece regardless if it is damaged or not. This I do not know.

What

Again I doubt serious harm would be done to the blade. The real harm comes when the blade comes to a sudden stop from 100 MPH.

Check this out, it is interesting and informative.

[Leon]

Euwwww.. That would require a human skin detector. Bad visual.

[Leon]

Mine included. And I wouldn't think of riding my motorcycle without a helmet. But it should be my decision, not forced on me.

Well, If I did not have to buy auto insurance to protect me AND the other guy I would say the helmet should be optional also. But, if you do not wear it and are insured and file a claim for a head injury we all have to help pay for your rehab. Insurance premiums are high but are not a wash when the cost of your head injury goes in to the hundreds of thousands of dollars. The other policy holders have to pitch in then with higher premiums.

Another of my "liberal" opinions :-).

[Leuf]

Okay, that makes more sense. Reading through the manual there are 3 power switches. One that physically disconnects power for making adjustments where you're going to get your hands near the blade. A master power that turns on the detection system (5-10 seconds to do system check) and then the paddle that turns on the motor. If you turn the master power off while the blade is moving you don't have protection.

And yes, when the system fires you have to replace the cartridge at $70 a pop. $90 for the dado cartridge. Though in the manual it says if you send them the activated cartridge after an incident they'll replace it free, but not for a misfire.

If it were to fire with the blade stopped I'd imagine you'd at least risk breaking a tooth. But it looks like that shouldn't happen once you get used to the dual power switch.

It also appears they've added in some ways to try to detect wet wood vs skin, and it will just shut the motor off without firing if it detects that.

-Leuf

[The Other Funk]

Finding the keyboard operational George Max entered:

Yeah it's like the "KEYBOARD NOT CONNECTED, PRESS F1 FOR HELP". I had a friend of mine use that for a screen saver. His sense of humor was warped too. But back to the topic. I am totaly against government involvement where unnecessary. But we are going to get this one like it or not. Mr.Gass isn't going to be the one to push this through. It's the people who make it sound like they are on your side but aren't. Yes boys and girls, the insurance lobby. Insurance companies hate to pay claims. Hate may not be strong enough a word. So we will see this and soon. (my WAG) False triggers are going to be a problem. Not maybe, will. And it won't be long before someone hacks the controller. Then someone will come up with a new sensor that is less prone to false triggering or a blade that won't be destroyed. My position is that SawStop or someother braking device will be on all new table saws in the near future. The good thing is that it will save some people from injury, The really stupid will get hurt anyhow. Even if we write to all 100 senators and the 200+? congressmen, all we will get is noise. If I take my prognostication a wee bit further - CMS, bandsaws and scroll saws will be next. What has got me stumped is how they will stop us from getting hurt with a hammer. Bob

--

-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times

[The Other Funk]

Finding the keyboard operational Chris Friesen entered:

$50.00 in 1965 = $297.91 today.

Dads first new car in 1965 cost $3800.00 If, and that is a big if, Sawstops technology is the only approved method then they won't be getting 8% unless they can prove that is what they need to recoup their research.

Bob PS If you want to freak out your kids, go to

and show them what the good ol days mean.

--

-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times

[Upscale]

Well, considering there's a store on the ground floor of my apartment building with an excellent deli section in it, I'd be a good 30 pounds lighter if the meat slicer stopped every time I went to buy. Sounds like a winner to me.

[Upscale]

Along those lines, Robin at Lee Valley admitted a few months back that they're swapping out regular saws for sawstops in all their facilities. The long and short of it is that it's just too costly not to adopt the technology.

[Upscale]

Oh wow, you've got voice operated IdiotSaw protection. Can't get much safer than that! :)

[Chris Dubea]

Wow. That would explain why the other saw manufacturers would have nothing to do with it.

What happens... if this gizmo fails to do it's thing and someone get injured? Electro-mechanical devices are NOT foolproof. There are lots of talented fools out there.

A worker gets lackadaisical in their habits because he KNOWS he won't get hurt because of the sawstop, and then it doesn't.

Imagine the number of zero's on that product liability check. =========================================================================== Chris

[Larry Blanchard]

Just as I pay for the skiers with broken legs, the ATV riders who overturn, the drivers with cell phones plastered to their ears, etc, etc.

We all pay for each others risks. If the insurance companies wanted, they could refuse to pay out for people who didn't wear their helmets, seat belts, etc. But rather than be the bad guys, they lobby to make the laws do their work for them.

[George Max]

Yes, especially since it's been shown to be possible.

You noted in one of my other messages that UL is also lining up against this? UL doesn't give a hoot whether or not the company building it makes any money with it, nor are they concerned with legal niceties of the operation of a companies business. They are involved with safety. Safety under not just the ordinary conditions, but also wildly abnormal situations. I think it's possible they see a flaw in the device. We'll see.

Saw Stop's own site says that. The device is designed for a hand pushing wood into the blade at some small rate. They say that a hand/body part moving faster will still sustain serious injury.

The article mentions exactly that. CMS, bandsaw and circular saw. No mention made of scroll saw.

Airbag

[lwasserm]

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to catch that!

[lwasserm]

You know, you would be a lot safer in a car accident if you were wearing a helmet, too...