Consumer Product Safety Comm. to discuss proposed SawStop technology safety rule


jd wrote:

Actually, that _is_ the competitive marketplace at work. After all, if you had a product, and you saw an opportunity to ensure nationwide sales, wouldn't _you_ take that opportunity?
Look, people, the original article cited a _press release_ from the Sawstop people. All it said is that he's having a meeting with a government official. That's all. If there's any chance that this'll turn into a new requirement for table saws, we can expect to have a long period wherein the industry will debate the issue, lobby the government, argue back and forth...
And chances are, the deciding factor won't be the government, but insurance companies. They might decide that, if you don't have a Sawstop, you're not covered... and thus, it'd become practically mandatory because of the competitive marketplace.
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No, not like that. There still is a thing called ethics but, it seems that the current idea is that nothing matters more than money. Steal it, extort it, whatever as long as you get more of it.
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Finding the keyboard operational CW entered:

Actually the SawStop folks have a legal responsibility to maximize profits for thier investors. Bob
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The Other Funk wrote:

And that justifies how many unethical and/or illegal practices?
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On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 09:04:40 -0700, Larry Blanchard

How is discussing your safety invention with a consumer safety board unethical or illegal?
Whether I like the guy or not, I'm not willing to increase my chances of losing a finger just to spite him. And seeing firsthand what otherwise intelligent people do with their saws, yes, as long as the cost isn't prohibitive there's no reason it shouldn't be on every saw.
-Leuf
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Maybe you haven't been fallowing along. They are actively trying to have legislation passed that would require devices of the type that only they have. Enrichment through legislation. So, if you still don't see a problem with that you are either a lawyer or are suffering from the disability that most of them suffer from, lack of an ethics gene.

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He tried to get the saw manufacturers to adopt the technology first. It was only when he was rejected that he started selling the saws. Selling saws equipped with it himself and trying to get it, or something equivalent to it, mandated are both logical next steps towards acheiving the goal of getting the technology out there. No doubt the guy sees the opportunity to get rich in the process. If he was a great humanitarian he'd be offering up the license for free to anyone that wants it. But that does not mean that it is somehow unethical to discuss safety with those charged with monitoring safety.
Let's put it this way. Say he came up with the device, and patents it. He goes to the saw manfacturers, they reject him. So he gives up and the technology never sees the light of day. Is that more ethical?
-Leuf
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So, does that put in the class of unethical greedy bastard or a god wanabe, since he apparently knows what's best for everyone? You know it's time to run when someone says to you "I'm from the government, I'm here to help you".

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I think that people are very price conscious and thus if you have cheap saws without the safety feature and more expensive saws with it, people are going to buy the cheaper one. Especially inexperienced people buying their first saw. Aren't those the people you'd most want to have the safety feature? And yet those saws currently have the poorest excuse for guards that most people give up on and take off. You don't want people losing fingers in order to learn the value of the device, and that is where the market fails and the government should step in. I'd rather have mandatory safety features than require a license to buy/operate a saw - though you could make an argument for that too.
It's not like there is going to be a law that says you can only buy saws from Sawstop. The others will get around the patent. If the guy was smart and was really in it just for the money then he'd find a price they couldn't refuse to license from him. Right now he's holding a gun to their heads saying either pay my ridiculous price or figure something out yourself, I don't care, just do it. I can respect that. A guy who is willing to piss people off to make something happen probably just isn't all about money.
And while the guy is a patent lawyer, he's also a woodworker, and came up with a pretty cool invention for his tools. We can all respect that much.
-Leuf
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wrote:

Yes, I can - until it is jammed down my throat.
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So, in a round about way, you answered my question. He is a god wannabe. He is sure he knows whats best for everyone else. What do you want to bet there is a big dose of GREEDY BASTARD in there to?
wrote:> Right now he's

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He
there
For all your discussion about this topic, it always comes back to the same thing ~ your accusation that he's greedy. Of course, that leads me to ask, what practical actions would you have done in his place? What alternatives would you have employed to try to get your product to market sooner than later. Stating the product *will* be used by the market sooner than later is not an answer. We *all* want to be successful now. This is an instant gratification society.
Altruism is a wonderful thing, but most often it's a concept that is not practiced nearly as much as many would like to believe. And since you're so big on freedom of choice, the foundation of part of our North American society, that freedom of choice necessarily includes the desire to become rich and well off as soon as humanely possible.
You *might* be a vegan, living in a mud hut and your only demand on society is to use your friend's computer so you can engage in this discussion, but it's extremely doubtful. So, I ask again, what actions might you have done differently? Realistically differently?
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wrote:

He was on his way to doing it the way everyone admires and respects. Big companies turn him down, he goes ahead and starts his own company to get the good device out there. I like that. I really do.
And I agree with others here that with such technology on his saws, insurance companies would be the driver behind getting it onto more saws. If the industrial companies are essentially pushed to use the Saw Stop saw, how long before Delta, Powermatic, etc. must follow?
And it would trickle down. The serious hobbyists already buy some models of saws found in pro shops. Big retailers like Sears and others would end up offering it on lesser models from the POV of liability. Again, insurance is the reason. Now that the new technology is here, how can they defend themselves when someone sues over losing a body part? Or being maimed?
Instant gratification is a seious problem when applied to wealth. Yeah, a "good thing" comes of it, but he's unjustly enriched. What if his device is in fact not the best? You don't *know* that he won't get his device made the standard. He is a member of a profession many hold in low regard. Lawyers are sometimes fully deserving of the scorn some will heap on them. They know how to manipulate the rule of law. Mr. Gass is obviously not afraid to do that.

When done fair and square, not through dictatorial fiat.

I'd build a better mousetrap and let the world beat a path to my door. He'd already started doing that with the founding of the Saw Stop saw company.
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He did what I would have done. He also went one step further and is trying to force sales by legislation. You seem to forget, this country was founded by people that got tired of being told what to do by the government. Now here you are, saying that the government should tell everybody what to do.
What alternatives

is
The fact that everyone wants instant gratification doesn't make any means to an end the right course to take. Bank robbers want instant gratification to. You support their efforts? A lawyer (scumbag) once told me, and he firmly believed it, that anything that you do, as long as there was not a specific law against it, was alright. Do you believe that?

Very few believe it. The attitude that you are advocating is becoming increasingly prevalent. That of screw any body to get what you want.

This society is quickly turning from free enterprise to free greed. Free enterprise is where you are willing to honestly work to get somewhere. Free greed is where you are willing to screw anyone to get somewhere. You seem to be an advocate of free greed. I pity those around you.

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Free
to
You don't know me and if it interests you, my ethics prevent me from the type of greed you're accusing me of. But, it makes you a special kind of asshole in my books.
If Gass was as guilty of all you're accusing him of, he'd have tried to legislate his invention from the get go. In the end, it now comes down to the fact that this product can save a number of people from a particularly horrendous difficulty in their lives. But NO, here's CW, defender of the free who wants this product to survive on it's own merits or not at all. I mean, my god, let's defend the right of personal choice just a little bit longer and have a few more tens of thousands of people lose parts of their hand so we can maintain that right to personal choice.
Screw everybody that it might help now, personal choice is more important. It's only a few fingers. Who cares? Do you have any concept at all what it's like to deal with a disability? And even worse, a disability that was entire preventable?
Does that just about sum up your opinion? You've accused me of personal greed at all costs without knowing anything about me. Let me return the sentiment. I accuse you of being so caught up in your illusion of free choice that you're more of a blind sheep than I'll ever be.
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Why should I think that you believe differently than the views you have been expressing? Are you now saying that you are a liar?

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Fuck off and get a life. At this point you're just trying to stir up an argument.
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I would appear that I have made you see yourself for what you are. Don't like it,eh?

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No dummy, you view me for what your paranoia about government has warped you into thinking.
I've been arguing the way I have because I feel that eliminating a good deal of pain and injury is more important than worrying about government involvement. For some reason, your paranoia about government transformed that into my being greedy.
I'm concerned about people suffering. You feel that personal choice is more important than people suffering. Who is the greedy one here?
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So, you know what is best for everyone right? You running for god next election?

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