Consumer Product Safety Comm. to discuss proposed SawStop technology safety rule

[gfretwell]

Gee does the saw stop solve this problem too?

[bremen68]

I stopped over at the saw stop site and took a look at their products. Interesting little gizmo, expensive, but very interesting.

I think if you're looking for an absolutely safe saw (from the blade anyway) this puppy just might be the ticket... Though I didn't see saftey bumpers on the corners, soft side cushions on the case, or an airbag type appliance incase of kick backs. And WHAT ABOUT THOSE BLASTED SPINTERS??

Ok I'll be serious for a moment, well as serious as I can be anyway... It looks like somebody put a lot of thought into this and if it works as claimed will save many a person from having to answer questions from their grandkids about why they have to take their shoes off to count to ten. However, with all new technology it's expensive. And anytime you ask a typical woodworker to lay out more cash...Well, let's just say it's not a good thing and leave it at that.

As for mandating that it be installed on all saws. That's an entirely different thing. Now you're encroaching on our rights to injure and maim ourselves in creative and painful ways as we see fit. I agree with everybody above who says "if it's that good a system, it will sell it's self and everybody will install it" The price will come down and like also stated above it will be just like any other feature "standard" on the saws.

Trying to mandate something in the US does tend to raise most folks hackles, we're a bit stiff necked about things when somebody comes up and says "This is how you're gonna do this, by the way you don't have a choice". Even if it's for our own good, we tend to be stuborn types.

I am kinda curious about a few technical aspects of the system. Not everybody keeps their shop in absolute perfect condition, some aren't weather tight, some are damp basements... How does this system handle adverse conditions. If it's relying on monitoring an electrical current through the blade will rust effect it?

What about nails? (I realize we should inspect our wood etc, but it does happen) Will hitting a nail in a piece of wood cause the safety to trip? I'm thinking hitting metal will cause a rather abrupt spike in conductivity and there by blow the stop. A block of aluminum hitting a spinning blade means that blade is toast, at $70 a reload plus $50 (or more) for a new blade, that's an expensive mistake. Does the saw function if you don't reload the cartridge?

For industry I'm thinking they're doomed to have to incorporate it. Insurance companies will make it happen if nobody else does. As with all things it will eventually trickle down to consumer level products. But just like the gaurds that are supposed to be on our saws now, how many are actually in place? I think that that will be the fate of this device as well for most of them.

My humbe two pennies worth of rambling... Take it as you will. :-)

[Larry Blanchard]

Actually, it does. It has a European style riving knife. Just about impossible to get a kickback. And that may be a bigger safety improvement than the brake.

The safety features are great - if I could afford one and had the space for it I'd buy one. But if the government tells me I have to have that gear, I'm going to be very upset.

I will ignore any replies from "Upscale" - we all know where he stands :-).

[Leuf]

So if the problem isn't awareness of the proper procedures but getting people to follow them, within reason, all the time - what's the solution?

We know that many people are out there using saws with no guard on them at all. We know that for a lot of people it's not because they are just stupid people who don't understand the risks, it's because the guard is so poorly designed and made that it is more dangerous to have it on there. I've used a saw where the guard/splitter was attached with two set screws on a smooth shaft. Guess how long that would stay in place before literally falling over when you start the saw? And you'd like to think that people being intelligent creatures would take the saw back to the store and find another one with a guard that does stay in place, even if it costs a bit more. But what they really do is takethe guard off and it sits there gathering dust. For twenty years they operate the saw without incident, and firmly believe that they don't need a guard because they know what they're doing. They've even replaced that old saw with one that they could use the guard with, but they never even took it out of the box because they don't need one. And then one day something happens and they go visit our doc at the ER. Now you can argue that they had it coming to them. Or you can do something to help the stubborn little bastard, you know he's never going to do anything to change unless you force it on him.

He certainly gets more benefit from the device than you do. Maybe his odds of serious injury go down from 1/1000 to 1/100,000. But your odds go down too, maybe from 1/1,000,000 to 1/10,000,000. You don't get as much benefit as he does, but you do get some benefit.

-Leuf

[Leuf]

The only problem is sawstop only really helps with certain types of accidents. A kickback that leads to injury is going to do so in a few ways. It chucks a piece of wood at you really fast - you never touched the blade so sawstop doesn't care. Or it causes the piece of wood you were holding, and your hand along with it, to go into the blade very fast. Sawstop can only stop the blade so quickly, if your hand is going too fast you will still have a serious injury.

For the most part it only prevents the stupid injuries that you should have known better.

I do wonder if there are better ways. I mean, waiting until the blade actually starts cutting you is kind of ridiculous when you think about it. What about a camera over the saw that tracks the movement of your hands. Start to do something stupid and it gives an audible warning. Hand behind the blade - *beep*. Hand within 3 inches of the blade

*beep*. Get closer and it shuts the motor off. Get really close or it detects your hands moving too fast and it engages an emergency brake. It would not have to stop as quickly and thus would not have to be as destructive or require consumable components. There are some practical problems no doubt.

And beyond that, why fire a pin into the expensive blade? Why not have a cheap steel toothed disk somewhere else on the shaft and fire your pin into that? Perhaps the diameter of it would have to be so large that it would affect the depth of cut.

-Leuf

[gfretwell]

I guess I don't know about that. Is this a different kind of blade? It's still a circular blade on a shaft?

[Chris Friesen]

A riving knife is a shark-fin shaped piece of metal that is fastened just behind the blade. It is curved to follow the shape of the blade, with maybe 1/8" clearance between the blade and the knife.

The main difference between it and a North-American style splitter is that it travels up and down with the blade, so that you can basically leave it on the saw at all times, even for non-through cuts.

The only time you'd have to take it off is for dado cuts, since the dado stack is normally smaller diameter.

Chris

[Chris Friesen]

If you stop the shaft rather than the blade itself, the blade will continue to have inertia. This may be enough to spin the arbour nut loose--especially when using dado blades.

Chris

[gfretwell]

When I looked at the wenb site it looked more like a shoe than a pin the blade but the real thing that looked useful was the blade also retracts. I am not sure they even need to stop it if that is true. The problem is it is a single shot deal. You trip it and you are buying a new "cartridge" which surely costs more than the typical hobby blade. My bet, the first time it trips someone will wedge the blade up and use it, assuming the blade is still usable. I am still curious what else will trip it. Plastic? Metal? Some pocket of sap in the wood? Static discharge?

[Joe Bemier]

HA! Beat me to it.....the first thing that entered my mind.

[Joe Bemier]

I have a knife on my machine. Frankly, I don't see how that related to this discussion....the kickbacks or the knife. Maybe you could explain. But, if the Gov mandated a kife on every machine we would not be having such an uproar. It's relatively cheap and just sits there doing its job.

[Joe Bemier]

Yeah. And, I believe the SS device depends on the sharp blade ripping into the aluminum block as a means of halting the blade.

And that brings me to another thought......

I wonder how many *Stops* a machine can take before the bearings and other mechanisms are damaged. I run a 5hp machine and am always amazed at the sheer power of the thing. Stopping that it a fraction of a second has to have an adverse effect on the arbor shaft, etc.. I guess the aluminum is the softer aspect so it would take most of the damge but what if a machine was involved in multiple stops?

[Leuf]

Good point. You'd need to have the blade keyed on the shaft.

-Leuf

[Joe Bemier]

I think the difference between your thoughts and mine is that you feel you should take responsibility for everybody. I am not saying this device should be deep sixed. I'm not saying it should not be available to those who want it. The issue is you and U/S are in favor of having it forced on everybody, taking away our choice.

*It would be my opinion* that the company has gone this route out of necessity - sales are might not be as vigorous as hoped. And, if I am correct, that means it is not a valued device.

[Upscale]

So, a partial truth comes out. It's not so much the possibility of the government mandating the Sawstop, it's being forced to spend too much money on this safety feature and the possibility of having to spend additional funds (replacement cartridge) as time goes on. OK. I can relate to that. I loath spending money on things when I can avoid it.

[Upscale]

Laugh if you want, but I know that you know I was talking about his general attitude that an injury will never happen to him because he's too careful.

[Larry Blanchard]

Someone said the brake didn't stop kickbacks. It doesn't, but the riving knife does. So they've got that covered as well.

[The Other Funk]

Finding the keyboard operational [e-mail] entered:

My point is that I keep up my equipment for my own safety. Woodworking has a set of risks and it is my responsibility to manage them. For the record, I think we will see SawStop or another safety device on a bunch of equipment with or without government regulation. But I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the insurance companies beat the government to the punch. Overall I think a device like SawStop is a good idea. Just like a backup regulator and a buddy. If you don't need the protection, great. I hope I never need it either. But there are more then enough people that will need it. One other thing. It's late and I am headed to bed. What was the deal with the '74 cars and seatbelts? Bob

--

-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times

[gfretwell]

You couldn't start a 1974 car without fastening your seatbelt

[Joe Bemier]

Thats about it Upscale. If it were a $10 chunk of metal that cannot cause me headaches down the road, I would just accept it and move on.

[Upscale]

Well, if it's any consolation, a few years down the road with competitor models coming out and improvements in the technology, I expect it to be close to that. Not $10 of course, but under $100. Someone will come up with a system that makes it reusable and not destroy the blade in the process of a firing.