Consumer Product Safety Comm. to discuss proposed SawStop technology safety rule

[CW]

[bremen68]

I stopped over at the saw stop site and took a look at their products. Interesting little gizmo, expensive, but very interesting.

I think if you're looking for an absolutely safe saw (from the blade anyway) this puppy just might be the ticket... Though I didn't see saftey bumpers on the corners, soft side cushions on the case, or an airbag type appliance incase of kick backs. And WHAT ABOUT THOSE BLASTED SPINTERS??

Ok I'll be serious for a moment, well as serious as I can be anyway... It looks like somebody put a lot of thought into this and if it works as claimed will save many a person from having to answer questions from their grandkids about why they have to take their shoes off to count to ten. However, with all new technology it's expensive. And anytime you ask a typical woodworker to lay out more cash...Well, let's just say it's not a good thing and leave it at that.

As for mandating that it be installed on all saws. That's an entirely different thing. Now you're encroaching on our rights to injure and maim ourselves in creative and painful ways as we see fit. I agree with everybody above who says "if it's that good a system, it will sell it's self and everybody will install it" The price will come down and like also stated above it will be just like any other feature "standard" on the saws.

Trying to mandate something in the US does tend to raise most folks hackles, we're a bit stiff necked about things when somebody comes up and says "This is how you're gonna do this, by the way you don't have a choice". Even if it's for our own good, we tend to be stuborn types.

I am kinda curious about a few technical aspects of the system. Not everybody keeps their shop in absolute perfect condition, some aren't weather tight, some are damp basements... How does this system handle adverse conditions. If it's relying on monitoring an electrical current through the blade will rust effect it?

What about nails? (I realize we should inspect our wood etc, but it does happen) Will hitting a nail in a piece of wood cause the safety to trip? I'm thinking hitting metal will cause a rather abrupt spike in conductivity and there by blow the stop. A block of aluminum hitting a spinning blade means that blade is toast, at $70 a reload plus $50 (or more) for a new blade, that's an expensive mistake. Does the saw function if you don't reload the cartridge?

For industry I'm thinking they're doomed to have to incorporate it. Insurance companies will make it happen if nobody else does. As with all things it will eventually trickle down to consumer level products. But just like the gaurds that are supposed to be on our saws now, how many are actually in place? I think that that will be the fate of this device as well for most of them.

My humbe two pennies worth of rambling... Take it as you will. :-)

[Upscale]

Well, there's always going to be fools around no matter whether actions are taken or not. And as far as suffering the consequences goes, it's the system that ultimately pays for someone chopping a finger off. If those statistics can be lowered compared to what they are now, then I'm all for it, even to the point of some added bureaucracy.

From laws enacted to enforce seat belts up to driving and drinking prevention, they're all laws that have benefited society no matter how they came into being. Of course one might argue that it's that individual only that suffers from chopping something off on a tablesaw, but I see it as everybody else paying by the system having to deal with the repercussions of it. And again, anyway I look at it, the effect it might have on my life is inconsequential so I just can't apply much concern for whether government gets involved or not. Maybe that's a selfish outlook, but I'd consider it the norm for our North American society. Call me a sheep, or conditioned or brainwashed or whatever you want, but there it is.

[CW]

OK, you're a brainwashed, conditioned, sheep.

Call me a sheep, or conditioned or

[Upscale]

For all your discussion about this topic, it always comes back to the same thing ~ your accusation that he's greedy. Of course, that leads me to ask, what practical actions would you have done in his place? What alternatives would you have employed to try to get your product to market sooner than later. Stating the product *will* be used by the market sooner than later is not an answer. We *all* want to be successful now. This is an instant gratification society.

Altruism is a wonderful thing, but most often it's a concept that is not practiced nearly as much as many would like to believe. And since you're so big on freedom of choice, the foundation of part of our North American society, that freedom of choice necessarily includes the desire to become rich and well off as soon as humanely possible.

You *might* be a vegan, living in a mud hut and your only demand on society is to use your friend's computer so you can engage in this discussion, but it's extremely doubtful. So, I ask again, what actions might you have done differently? Realistically differently?

[Upscale]

And, the fact that you're saying it tells me that you've never had an invention that you've tried to bring to market.

If you ever do have such an invention, you'll realize then what you need to put into it. You live that invention, you promote it at every opportunity. Your friends although they support you also think you're a fanatic and overzealous. Every time you look at your invention, you wonder how it can be improved, what can you do to it that will make people want it. It consumes you to the point that it's all you think about. In short, it's your life, your baby that you want to bring to fruition. Sure, you'd like to get rich from your invention, but that's not your only motivation. You want people to enjoy your invention, benefit from it.

*THAT'S* what your invention represents. If you've gone through all that then you might understand. Just having an idea for an invention doesn't qualify. You have to actually make a prototype and then start going to see person after person to try to get them to see it's value just as you do.

[CW]

BTDT. So, this supposedly justifies using the government to force it on people? YOU WILL BUY THIS AND LIKE IT, DAMN IT

[The Other Funk]

Finding the keyboard operational CW entered:

No it's not a someone else did it. It's an idea whose time has come. No legislation is being pushed. Not by a long shot. Your right to swing your fist stops at my nose and that is what we are talking about. Why should I support your widow and kids because you sliced your hand off when there is a safety device to prevent it? Next you'll want to take your seatbelts out of the car and replace all your outlets with 2 prong ones. Oh, if you are ever in court, remember you are represented by a "scumbag" You can have the last word. I'm dropping this Bob

--

-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times

[gfretwell]

Yes inventing things and bringing them to market is tough but that still doesn't excuse pressing for a law to mandate your invention before it is really proven to be useful. This saw stop is one example, my example of the AFCI is another. They are actually doing beta testing of new AFCI designs in the customer's home, under the power of law. I see the attempt at getting CPSC mandating of this saw stop as the same thing.

[CW]

My apologies. I thought you were trying to justify the practice.

[gfretwell]

Accepted and appreciated. If this invention is the greatest thing since the invention of the circular saw the world will beat a path to his door. We don't need the government involved.

[CW]

[CW]

BS argument. If someone farts in china, it affects you in a very minute way but it affects you. Want to send troupes over there shove corks up their butts? It'll cost you. No matter what happens, in some minute way you will be effected. I would hole heartedly suggest, that you up and move to Pluto. That will be far enough away that those Chinese farts won't effect you. Yes, if I ever needed it, my goal would be to hire a bigger scumbag than the next guys.

by a "scumbag"

[George Max]

He was on his way to doing it the way everyone admires and respects. Big companies turn him down, he goes ahead and starts his own company to get the good device out there. I like that. I really do.

And I agree with others here that with such technology on his saws, insurance companies would be the driver behind getting it onto more saws. If the industrial companies are essentially pushed to use the Saw Stop saw, how long before Delta, Powermatic, etc. must follow?

And it would trickle down. The serious hobbyists already buy some models of saws found in pro shops. Big retailers like Sears and others would end up offering it on lesser models from the POV of liability. Again, insurance is the reason. Now that the new technology is here, how can they defend themselves when someone sues over losing a body part? Or being maimed?

Instant gratification is a seious problem when applied to wealth. Yeah, a "good thing" comes of it, but he's unjustly enriched. What if his device is in fact not the best? You don't *know* that he won't get his device made the standard. He is a member of a profession many hold in low regard. Lawyers are sometimes fully deserving of the scorn some will heap on them. They know how to manipulate the rule of law. Mr. Gass is obviously not afraid to do that.

When done fair and square, not through dictatorial fiat.

I'd build a better mousetrap and let the world beat a path to my door. He'd already started doing that with the founding of the Saw Stop saw company.

[George Max]

I like what Danny DeVito said in "Other People's Money" - Lawyers are like nuclear weapons. You have them, they have them, and once you use them, they f*** everything up.

I might be paraphrasing his line, but that's pretty much it.

[CW]

He did what I would have done. He also went one step further and is trying to force sales by legislation. You seem to forget, this country was founded by people that got tired of being told what to do by the government. Now here you are, saying that the government should tell everybody what to do.

What alternatives

The fact that everyone wants instant gratification doesn't make any means to an end the right course to take. Bank robbers want instant gratification to. You support their efforts? A lawyer (scumbag) once told me, and he firmly believed it, that anything that you do, as long as there was not a specific law against it, was alright. Do you believe that?

Very few believe it. The attitude that you are advocating is becoming increasingly prevalent. That of screw any body to get what you want.

This society is quickly turning from free enterprise to free greed. Free enterprise is where you are willing to honestly work to get somewhere. Free greed is where you are willing to screw anyone to get somewhere. You seem to be an advocate of free greed. I pity those around you.

[Upscale]

I didn't say that, don't put words in my mouth. And, if what I read about Sawstop's inventor, those were not his first actions. I'm much more inclined to believe the talk that the manufacturer's attempted to freeze him out because it would eat into their profits. After that, anything goes in my books.

You're so down on what you perceive as Mr. Gass as attempting to legislate this device and forcing you to use this product. Exactly how much vitriol have you put into the manufacturers attempting to prevent the use of this type of device at the cost of your safety? In a word NONE. Pretty one sided in your attack don't you think? You're so big on personal choice and not being forced to do anything that you've blindsided yourself to the manufacturers maximizing profits without due concern to your health. You need to examine what's really important here.

[Upscale]

You don't know me and if it interests you, my ethics prevent me from the type of greed you're accusing me of. But, it makes you a special kind of asshole in my books.

If Gass was as guilty of all you're accusing him of, he'd have tried to legislate his invention from the get go. In the end, it now comes down to the fact that this product can save a number of people from a particularly horrendous difficulty in their lives. But NO, here's CW, defender of the free who wants this product to survive on it's own merits or not at all. I mean, my god, let's defend the right of personal choice just a little bit longer and have a few more tens of thousands of people lose parts of their hand so we can maintain that right to personal choice.

Screw everybody that it might help now, personal choice is more important. It's only a few fingers. Who cares? Do you have any concept at all what it's like to deal with a disability? And even worse, a disability that was entire preventable?

Does that just about sum up your opinion? You've accused me of personal greed at all costs without knowing anything about me. Let me return the sentiment. I accuse you of being so caught up in your illusion of free choice that you're more of a blind sheep than I'll ever be.

[Dave Bugg]

Where is it written that any manufacturer is obligated to incorporate any specific technology into their product? Saw manufacturers are certainly entitled to take a pass on Sawstop, regardless of reason. Wow, big conspiracy.

Prevent the use? WTH are you talking about? Can't Sawstop be purchased by an individual customer?

Oh, peeshaw. Defending a rhetorical position doesn't require one to provide equal time to the position that is opposed.

Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. If the whirlysharp industry should be forced to adopt Sawstop, it wouldn't affect the manufacturer's profit line one smegging iota; the entire cost is passed onto the consumer. Actually it is YOU who are so unconcerned about individual consumer choice, that YOU want to force us to pay for a product whether we want it or not. Powermatic, Delta, Jet, General, et al won't lose a bit of sleep over being forced to incorporate Sawstop.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

One of those thing we'll never know for sure. I also read that he wanted a huge royalty. I was not at the meetings so I surely don't know for sure. If his motivation was purely to save accidents, he'd have given he technology for free.

I have to admire him for starting his own saw business. The marketplace will determine the value of his idea.

[Larry Blanchard]

OK, where do you stop?

Is it OK if I go skiing?

Is it OK if I ride my motorcycle or ATV?

Is it OK if I go trapshooting?

Is it OK if I take a bath? (lots of accidents in bathrooms)

IOW, you're supporting the proverbial slippery slope.

--=20 It's turtles, all the way down