Finding the keyboard operational Dave Bugg entered:
Seat belts, air bags and catalytic converters on cars. Burst disks on pressurized gas tanks. GFIs on portable air conditioners. Deadman devices on lawnmowers. Childproof caps on medicines. That's all I could come up with in 5 minutes. Bob
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-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
I stopped over at the saw stop site and took a look at their products. Interesting little gizmo, expensive, but very interesting.
I think if you're looking for an absolutely safe saw (from the blade anyway) this puppy just might be the ticket... Though I didn't see saftey bumpers on the corners, soft side cushions on the case, or an airbag type appliance incase of kick backs. And WHAT ABOUT THOSE BLASTED SPINTERS??
Ok I'll be serious for a moment, well as serious as I can be anyway... It looks like somebody put a lot of thought into this and if it works as claimed will save many a person from having to answer questions from their grandkids about why they have to take their shoes off to count to ten. However, with all new technology it's expensive. And anytime you ask a typical woodworker to lay out more cash...Well, let's just say it's not a good thing and leave it at that.
As for mandating that it be installed on all saws. That's an entirely different thing. Now you're encroaching on our rights to injure and maim ourselves in creative and painful ways as we see fit. I agree with everybody above who says "if it's that good a system, it will sell it's self and everybody will install it" The price will come down and like also stated above it will be just like any other feature "standard" on the saws.
Trying to mandate something in the US does tend to raise most folks hackles, we're a bit stiff necked about things when somebody comes up and says "This is how you're gonna do this, by the way you don't have a choice". Even if it's for our own good, we tend to be stuborn types.
I am kinda curious about a few technical aspects of the system. Not everybody keeps their shop in absolute perfect condition, some aren't weather tight, some are damp basements... How does this system handle adverse conditions. If it's relying on monitoring an electrical current through the blade will rust effect it?
What about nails? (I realize we should inspect our wood etc, but it does happen) Will hitting a nail in a piece of wood cause the safety to trip? I'm thinking hitting metal will cause a rather abrupt spike in conductivity and there by blow the stop. A block of aluminum hitting a spinning blade means that blade is toast, at $70 a reload plus $50 (or more) for a new blade, that's an expensive mistake. Does the saw function if you don't reload the cartridge?
For industry I'm thinking they're doomed to have to incorporate it. Insurance companies will make it happen if nobody else does. As with all things it will eventually trickle down to consumer level products. But just like the gaurds that are supposed to be on our saws now, how many are actually in place? I think that that will be the fate of this device as well for most of them.
My humbe two pennies worth of rambling... Take it as you will. :-)
Can we crush this silly, unparallel comparison to seat belt in an auto.
For the 3rd or 4th time. When I drive out on the streets, I wear a SB
*only* due to the risk posed by other drivers. Safe operation of a TS is wholly in the hands of the operator. Find another comparison as that one does not work.
And yet cost increases are a common occurence in virtually all segments of manufacturing, but growth in sales still continue. There is no reason to believe, nor have you supplied direct evidence to support your supposition, that tablesaw sales would go down. So no, your thoughts on the matter make no sense.
In all honesty, I think it's reached the point where it will not be mandated, because it won't be necessary. Robin at Lee Valley has admitted that they're replacing all their table saws with Sawstops. I believe he explained it as being a necessary business decision based on cost to not do otherwise - re. possible insurance repercussions. Please correct me if I'm wrong there Robin. So, I have to assume it's going to become a major part of the industry anyway, probably sooner than later. Right, now this is Canadian I'm talking about, but I don't think there's so much difference between Canada and the USA as far as insurance goes.
Exactly! If I want a device that allows me to operate a TS outside of procedure and still be safe, fine. But, if I prefer to follow procedure, use caution, respect the machine then I don't need this device and I don't want the Gov telling me that I do.
Bob, the argument was centered around the obligation of a manufacturer to purchase a non-mandated technology from a developer. I wasn't arguing that the government had never required the implementation of a technology by an industry. I'm afraid that you misread the context of my post :-)
Finding the keyboard operational Edwin Pawlowski entered:
Several years ago, Volvo had a commercial about all the safety features they developed and patented but they never enforced the patents. In other words they gave the technology away for free. Noble, right? How many cars do you think they sold based on that commercial? More then enough to pay for the commercial? Bob
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-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
So you're fine to accuse me of ridiculous comparisons, but you feel free to use them yourself? Grow up, you know damned well I suggested no such comparison.
Let me ask you. Knowing what you know now about increasing diabetes and cardiovascular disease, if one single mandate could have been enacted 30 years ago that would effectively and selectively eliminated the bulk of these conditions, would you still say it was undesirable? Knowing all the misery and strife that these two conditions have caused to our society, would you still be sticking to your "no government involvement"?
Same kind as me...:)
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So, my running my car at 60 MPH into a concrete light post with no other drivers involved fails to qualify? And you consider your driving to be so perfect that it's impossible for you to make a mistake, any accident is
*always* going to be caused by someone else?Again, I'm jealous of your place in the world. I'm sure if you really thought about it, you'd realize that whatever reasons you've chosen to use a seat belt, this government mandated piece of equipment benefits you. While some may argue against how something came to be utilized in our society, you can't argue against the fact that in cases like we're discussing, it was done to increase our safety. Isn't that what's most important here, to prevent injury?
Well, I don't know Robin and based on the business he has built he's surely made some sound business decisions, but I feel he is wrong here. A few quarters will tell...year on year sell through. And, while I am not a lawyer, I don't think retailers are culpable in liability cases....(?)
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My point above is illustrative. I always wear a SB and always will whether I have to or not. Your accident (sorry to hear about that) is a rare event based on the circumstances you detail. there must have been some mitigating factor(s)....?
Costs are costs, regardless of the nature of the health care. And you were the one that wanted to dance by saying: "Big difference don't you think with things that can cause definite instant injury and other things that may cause health difficulties over a long period"? I was just following your lead.
I have never said I am against all government involvement, and it is rhetorically dishonest to try to support your arguments on that kind of tactic. You seem to be having difficulty with the concept that opposing a government mandate does not mean you oppose all. However, since you seem locked into that position, do you support all government involvement since you seem to support this mandate?
I'm not quite sure why, but I think we've all gotten a little heated on this discussion so let me offer my apologies to anyone that I've offended. I'm reasonably sure that if any of us met in person and shared our views over a beer, the discussion would have been much less difficult.
I'll post that picture of the accident I was it, it's mostly a conversation piece at this point, but I do use it to emphasize the lives that seat belts save, mine definitely being one of them, so maybe that's why I'm particular about it.
Dave Moore
Of course not and I do see your point. I was only trying to illustrate that government involvement, mandate or whatever does not automatically make it a bad thing, which is the vibe I seem to be getting from you.
If things didn't get heated, then you'd sorta wonder if there was any passion behind one's position. :-) I think that it was a good discussion and it was valuable to hear the various viewpoints on this specific issue. Plus, no one lost any body parts during this thread. I'm not a beer-drinker, but I'd sip an iced tea with you any day.
How many millions of people use their table saw without cutting off a finger? All 10 here and I am a 4th generation "10 finger" table saw user. Maybe it is just good training.
Nope, not in 60 years
Nothing YOU had to pay for.
I am not that unique
I am typing with all my fingers, how about you
Bullshit. How bout when someone walks up behind you while you are making a cut and scares the crap out of you? I have had this happen. What if something big and heavy falls over somewhere in the shop and scares the crap out of you while you are making a cut? I have not had this happen during a cut, but I have certainly had things fall over and make me jump. What if something catches on fire while you are making a cut? At no time do you ever have complete control of your environment. You cannot have the factory guard in place for all cuts. Thus, you can be doing everything by the book and still get injured.
Ah, but I forget you're a perfect driver and perfect saw operator and will never make a mistake. You will never not notice a patch of black ice and wreck your car on your own. You will never get caught by sun glare and wreck your car on your own. You'll never be distracted and enter a turn too fast and wreck your car on your own. These are all things that happen to the other guy, not you.
Personally, I'd rather have the safety board decide whether this should be on all saws, not you. Considering I'm paying their salary and that's their job and all. Hopefully they are actually knowledgable people and not just political appointees.
-Leuf
Finding the keyboard operational Joe Bemier entered:
SawStop (the product not the saw) has been available for a couple of years. When Dr. Gass approached the equipment manufacturers, they all passed on it. And they had every right to. My feeling is that no one manufacturer wanted to either decrease their margin or increase their price. Having a product that he believed in, Dr. Gass's company began making their own saw. Up to this point I don't think anyone has a problem with what went on. So then, and here begins the problem, Dr. Gass goes to Washington to appear in front of the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Now everyone gets their knickers in a twist. As of this minute, no one is telling you that you have to buy a SawStop equiped table saw. You are still free to buy what ever you like. In the future saws are going to be equiped with some form of blade stopping mechanism. Maybe only Dr. Gass's but probably not. Do you really believe that this whole thing came as a surprise to say Delta? Do you think that somewhere back in Delta's product development dept. there is someone working on a blade stopping device of their own? Now I am not addressing the subject of the individual freedom to do whatever you want to do. I have a posistion on it. You have a position on it. We can leave it at that. Respectfully Bb
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-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
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