I used to feel the way you do about mandated safety, seat belts in
particular. But I have swung the other way due to the outrageous cost
to all of us in terms of health care. I lost the dip joint in the ring
finger of my left hand to a TS, but thanks to the amazing skill of
somebody like you, it isn't too bad. I count myself lucky for having
learned a valuable lesson at a relatively small cost.
Thanks for the valued insight Dr. David. You may have read my
responses above where I try to explain that accidents do not happen
when the operator follows proper procedure. If one is so inclined
there are many documented cases of injuries related to TS operation to
review. I cannot find a single case where the operator was anywhere
near proper procedure. It defies logic to suggest that such an
accident could take place. I would not want to go as far as to say it
would be physically impossible, but rather, extremely unlikely.
Thanks for posting!
Although that may be a significant argument in your mind, it is not
persuasive to me. Life *itself* causes outrageous health care costs.
Seatbelts -- by themselves -- are *most* effective at speeds below 40 mph
(we're talkin' current seatbelts, not racing harnesses). It has been
demonstrated that, even with airbags, requiring helmets in a car can further
increase the survivability of crashes above 40 mph, while decreasing brain
injury. So, perhaps we need to mandate that cars be equipped with speed
regulators, and that passengers and drivers be required to wear helmets.
Let's also eliminate bicycles and motorbikes, backpacking and climbing,
boating, swimming, monkeybars, etc, because these, and numerous other
activities also add to the outrageous costs to all of us.
And by all means, lets eliminate new medical technologies and pharmaceutical
R&D and the adversarial legal system, 'cause they definitely add to the
outrageous costs to all of us in terms of health care.
Or maybe we could require everyone who purchases a WhirlySharp tool to show
proof of health and disability insurance. That way, if there is an injury or
disability, it is covered. We can also require registration of the tool
with the Dept. of WhirlySharp Tools prior to the purchase, so that
continuous monitoring of the insurance requirements are in place.
Or instead of the above, just keep encouraging people to read the manual, to
fully understand and *use* the safety precautions for the WhirlySharp tool
in question, and not to work in a manner that puts human flesh at risk of
And how do you respond to those times where serious accidents have occurred
at much greater speeds and coming out of it almost completely unscathed? If
you want me to, I can post a picture of an accident I was in at 60 MPH
ramming into a concrete telephone pole that fell on the car and crushed it,
but where I came out of it with a cut on my hand and virtually no other
injury. Was I lucky? Damned right I was. But, I attribute 99% of that luck
to the fact that I was wearing a standard seat belt ~ a seat belt that I
wouldn't have been wearing without laws to mandate it.
It sounds like YOU really do need a nanny government. Some of us
My Jeep rollover was harmless too but I had my seatbelt fastened and
it wasn't a law then. Some of us can be safe without a government
Well, I guess that says it all. The GREAT INVULNERABLE human. Obviously,
you've never had to go to a hospital for an injury, you've never visited a
doctor because you've never been sick and you've never needed any type of
assistance whatsoever even once in your life.
All of these things mandated and maintained by government and the
bureaucracy that you hate so much has been completely useless to you.
My hat is off to you and your uniqueness. I'm truly envious of your exempt
status in this universe. Too bad we're not all so lucky.
(You're so full of crap it's putrefying)
Taking the long road to the horizon, ain't ya, Butch. You were the one that
stated you wouldn't wear a seatbelt unless it was mandated. gfretwell stated
that he wore his because he knew it was good for him. It seems to me that
the Gman was the one that KNEW he was vulnerable. It was YOU, because you
lacked the commonsense to wear one without the government saying so, felt
that you were INVULNERABLE.
Again, a great, giant leap off of nowhere. To oppose any government mandate
does NOT equate to opposing ALL government mandates.
I left that in so that we could all enjoy your wit.
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 15:58:34 -0400, email@example.com wrote:
Exactly! If I want a device that allows me to operate a TS outside of
procedure and still be safe, fine. But, if I prefer to follow
procedure, use caution, respect the machine then I don't need this
device and I don't want the Gov telling me that I do.
Ah, selective snipping. Even so, you must go back and read the my post for
comprehension. I did not say that there are never good outcomes ABOVE 40
Excellent. Yes I would love to see that picture, please post it. I serve on
the Governor's Injury Prevention Task-Force, and it may be worth sharing.
Well, thanks for making several folk's point. That users have the ability to
virtually eliminate severe injury when using WhirlySharps, but they choose
to ignore the safety gear and techniques available to them.
Can we crush this silly, unparallel comparison to seat belt in an
For the 3rd or 4th time. When I drive out on the streets, I wear a SB
*only* due to the risk posed by other drivers. Safe operation of a TS
is wholly in the hands of the operator.
Find another comparison as that one does not work.
So, my running my car at 60 MPH into a concrete light post with no other
drivers involved fails to qualify? And you consider your driving to be so
perfect that it's impossible for you to make a mistake, any accident is
*always* going to be caused by someone else?
Again, I'm jealous of your place in the world. I'm sure if you really
thought about it, you'd realize that whatever reasons you've chosen to use a
seat belt, this government mandated piece of equipment benefits you. While
some may argue against how something came to be utilized in our society, you
can't argue against the fact that in cases like we're discussing, it was
done to increase our safety. Isn't that what's most important here, to
My point above is illustrative. I always wear a SB and always will
whether I have to or not.
Your accident (sorry to hear about that) is a rare event based on the
circumstances you detail. there must have been some mitigating
Bullshit. How bout when someone walks up behind you while you are
making a cut and scares the crap out of you? I have had this happen.
What if something big and heavy falls over somewhere in the shop and
scares the crap out of you while you are making a cut? I have not had
this happen during a cut, but I have certainly had things fall over
and make me jump. What if something catches on fire while you are
making a cut? At no time do you ever have complete control of your
environment. You cannot have the factory guard in place for all cuts.
Thus, you can be doing everything by the book and still get injured.
Ah, but I forget you're a perfect driver and perfect saw operator and
will never make a mistake. You will never not notice a patch of black
ice and wreck your car on your own. You will never get caught by sun
glare and wreck your car on your own. You'll never be distracted and
enter a turn too fast and wreck your car on your own. These are all
things that happen to the other guy, not you.
Personally, I'd rather have the safety board decide whether this
should be on all saws, not you. Considering I'm paying their salary
and that's their job and all. Hopefully they are actually
knowledgable people and not just political appointees.
You're getting carried away. I wear m a seatbelt and that is not the
debate. My point is that the two are hardly comparable. Thats the
point Leuf, that operation of a TS is not subject to other parties.
Unless of course you cannot find a reasonable argument and so want to
talk about black ice.
You said "I wear a SB *only* due to the risk posed by other drivers."
and that is the same argument you make about the saw. You follow all
the proper procedures all the time and if everyone did like you no one
would ever be injured. That's a fairy tale.
As Nahm says it, learning how to use your power tools properly will
greatly reduce the risk of personal injury. Note how he says greatly
reduce, not eliminate? It's a question of numbers. The odds of
something happening during any given cut is very very small. The
number of cuts made is very very large.
If we can get another line of defense in there for a reasonable cost,
it certainly makes sense to me to at least consider mandating it be on
all saws. And it may be that the board sees it the way you do, that
the current measures are sufficient to provide adequate safety and no
mandate for the device is necessary.
Just out of curiousity, how would you feel about a requirement that
you must pass a safety course covering proper procedures to buy a saw?
Well, over 30 years of nearly daily use and I have not as much as a
nick -honest. I think that might be the issue. Maybe some of you guys
are very intimidated by a TS and thus the feeling you need this
device. And, that is why it should be a consumer option and not a gov
mandate. For my part, I respect the machine and understand how to
reduce my risk to only a freak accident...something in the statistical
neighborhood of a clear sky lightning strike.
You realize that cars could be safer than what we have today. We could
mandate rollcages. What if a small subset of drivers started driving
around w/o seatbelts and getting injured. Would you agree that we
should put roll cages in all cars just because these ppl cannot follow
I am willing to bet that the very same ppl who are at risk for injury
on a TS are at risk for all kind of other injuries. Put a device on a
TS and these ppl will cut themselves on a chainsaw. Put the device on
the chainsaw and they will decide to have a BBQ in the garage with the
door closed. You can look at the whole firearm picture for some very
good likeness....i.e., guns don't kill ppl, ppl kill ppl.....or
something like that. Same thing- you have thousands upon thousands of
individuals (clearly the larger group by far) who operate a TS w/o
Well, I am never in favor of more bureaucracy. And, as the doc pointed
out many of the injuries he sees are experienced guys. That leads me
to believe that it is not for lack of understanding that these
accidents occur, but rather due to deviation from proper methods.
If ppl were getting hurt while following proper procedure then I would
probably feel different about this device.
Extra Note: In the past few days since this thread heated up I have
taken note of my own actions while using the TS. I have found that my
hands are never beyond the front fence rail while making cuts. I do
this w/o thinking about it. My push sticks are 2-3 feet (long grain)
and I never go for my cut piece or the scrap until the blade has
stopped. I do these things automatically w/o thinking about them.
And that's exactly the type of attitude that will bite you in the butt one
day, that it's unlikely you might have an accident. Would you say there's
quite a few experienced woodworkers on this newsgroup?. Sure most of them
might still have all their fingers, but I wonder how many would admit to
experiencing a kick back, either small or large? I admit to it and I'm
certainly not accident prone.
A warped piece of wood, one that has an unseen split in it and there you go,
a kick back whizzing by your head. That's an accident. How many people are
using contactor saws with a motor hanging out the back of it driven by a
pulley? A falling piece of wood into that spinning rubber pulley and a piece
of wood gets whipped into a wall somewhere. How many might admit to that?
Have you ever once removed your splitter and blade guard to cut a piece of
wood? Automatically, you're open to some type of accident. It's fine that
you're very careful, but it's just not humanely possible to take everything
into account every time. To say otherwise is completely unrealistic.
Considering the huge amount of tablesaws out there, even a small percentage
of injuries adds up to a large amount when you tally them all. It's only
common sense to minimize that amount.
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