SawStop New Table Saw Safety Technology

[Jim Redelfs]

This is not spam. Of course, every time I read a usenet article that begins like that, it *IS* spam. Trust me, this isn't.

A friend's brother-in-law (huh?) sent him the following link. My friend promptly emailed it to three others, including me.

I'm not in the cabinet-making business but this amazing 10-inch table saw make me want to again acquire a table saw. I'm sure I'd have to get a second mortgage. (I have NO idea the cost, but I'm sure it isn't cheap.)

I work for the phone company and don't even own a table or radial-arm saw and, therefore, have no interest in this company or product beyond how COOL it would be to have this tool! Enjoy!

[Charles Schuler]

Absolutely safe power tools don't work, absolutely.

[Charlie Morgan]

Actually, in this case, you are absolutely wrong. I've seen a live demonstration. Do some homework, and improve yourself.

CWM no affiliation, imagined or otherwise.

[Charles Schuler]

Ridiculous! Tools are tools and fools are fools (and never the twain should meet).

[Charlie Morgan]

You are about as wrong as you could possibly be in this particular case.

Maybe you think brakes and steering are unecessary on a car?

CWM

[Charles Schuler]

You have got to be kidding. Tools that cut can cut anything in their path. Tools that cannot cut fingers also cannot cut the work material, in all situations. OSHA inspectors often cite safety devices that have been defeated ... why?, because there is no other way to get the work done.

You are an obvious shill.

Any tool that cuts can hurt you, especially so if you are a stupid ass.

I have a friend in the lawn-mower industry who has stated and restated that when lawn-mowers are completely safe, so is the grass.

It's just common sense.

[RicodJour]

There's common sense, and then there's common sense. Have you seen the SawStop in action? Tom Silva demonstrated one on This Old House. He used a hot dog to simulate a finger. As soon as the blade touched the hot dog there was a LOUD bang and the blade disappeared immediately. The hot dog skin was just _barely_ scratched. It works. Of course every time the brake engages the blade is fried and you have to replace the braking mechanism and the blade.

Is the technology good? Yep. Is it for everyone? Dubious. Do I approve of SawStop attempting to have legislation pass that will require their product on every table saw? No way!

I'm a firm believer that stupidity can't be legislated out of existence. There will always be someone who will manage to hurt themselves.

R

[Charles Schuler]

As I said before, this is ridiculous. Half of the stuff on this old house is also ridiculous and the other half is questionable. This old house is TV .... get it? TV! TV! Not reality!

Table saws should only be used by those who know how to use them. Chain saws too!

So, any fool can go to Sears and buy one or both. That's just one reason why there are so many wealthy lawyers.

Show me a safe chain saw and I'll show you a device that won't cut down a sapling! A safe table saw will not rip a 2 x 4.

I can't believe that I am responding to this dumb shit. Signed off, forever! PLONK

[Dave Martindale]

Right. As I understand it, the system detects that the blade has touched something conductive, either by current flow to the table or capacitance. But neither mechanism is a foolproof way to detect flesh. How can it detect the difference between a finger and wet wood? If the SawStop trips by mistake, how much does it cost to replace the brake and the blade?

Even worse: if it works by conductivity, and you happen to be wearing rubber-coated gloves, there may be no circuit created when the saw blade touches your finger, so the SawStop doesn't trigger. Yet, because you think you can't get hurt by the blade, you're going to be more casual about working with the saw than if you *know* it will take your hand off in a fraction of a second. You could end up more likely to be injured than with a conventional table saw.

I agree with that.

Dave

[RicodJour]

Oh, I get it. Those buildings are all built on a sound stage somewhere, right? It's all staged and heavy on the computer graphics. That host avatar looks a lot like Howdy Doody. I wonder if they had to license him...

The stuff on the show is real, whether you approve of it or not.

Where's the fun in that?

What are you suggesting? Licensing chainsaws and tablesaws?

Where do you get this stuff? You don't seem to know the first thing about the SawStop, but you've taken quite the emotional stance. Visit the web site, read the FAQ. Then you can start yelling in an informed manner.

Suicide isn't the answer. Please reconsider!

R

[Charlie Morgan]

Okay, so your are a hyperactive dolt. What else can you offer? Please stick to facts.

CWM

[Edwin Pawlowski]

There is a bypass if you are cutting aluminum or wet wood, but in 99.9% of all users, we dont want to cut wet wood. That is not really an issue.

Two things here, First you should not be wearing any sort of glove using a table saw of any type. Yes, there is a danger to getting a glove caught since you don't have the same feel. Second, once the glove is cut, it will detect the skin and you have conductivity again. I've not seen everything, but I've never seen a woodworker wearing rubber gloves when using a table saw. To avoide a safety divice for the tiny amount of people int he world that woud do so, is just plain silly.

Does your car have seatbelts and air bags? Did it change your driving habits? Another silly argument.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

People who own them are very pleased with the results. It is a high quality tool, ranks with the best of them. Rather than make silly statements, go see one and try one out. Lee Valley stores replaced all of their saws with the Sawstop.

No one is forcing you to buy one, so you still have a choice.

[RicodJour]

Far as I know, nothing is foolproof. The manufacturer makes that clear on their web site. If your hand is moving fast when you hit the blade, you will get damaged. At normal speed the cut would be about

1/16" deep. Replacing the blade and the brake ain't gonna be cheap, but I guarantee that it's less than the emergency room visit. The wet wood would still have a substantially different conductivity/ capacitance than wood. There's far more water in flesh than in even the wettest wood (I don't mean wood that's been rained on, and I'm not sure how PT saturated wood would work - the chemicals might change the wood conductivity substantially).

When the saw cut through the glove and hit your finger, then it would trigger. Shouldn't be a problem - unless the glove gets snagged and pulls your hand towards the blade.

As far as the second part, do you find yourself taking dangerous risks because your car has seat belts and air bags? Regardless of the technology, the wet ware that hits the on switch is still the biggest potential problem.

R

[RicodJour]

I've been guilty of wearing gloves and operating a table saw on occasion, and I know it's a bad idea. A surgeon woodworker friend told me about the dangers of wearing wedding rings while working with shop tools. He related the scenario where the ring got caught and it stripped the flesh off of the finger bone. It's called degloving and it's almost impossible to repair. Usually they have to do a partial amputation of the finger.

R

[The Other Funk]

Finding the keyboard operational Charles Schuler entered:

You should do a bit of research before you post. Sawstop has been around for a few years. So far there hasn't been anyone injured as far as I know. Technology keeps moving ahead. Bob

--

-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times

[Anonymous]

Just before I recently retired, I talked my boss into looking into a SawStop .. .. .. he liked it and bought one for our shop. After receiving it, he and the plant manager wanted to see a demonstration .. .. .. after all, we did buy 5 extra cartridges. I got the opportunity to perform the demo on two occasions, and it went perfectly both times. We were using a blade ground with an ATB configuration. I pre-cut a "v" notch in a piece of 2"X6" and taped the hotdog in place. The saw was started and the test board was pushed into the saw at a rate one would never consider practical. In a moment, there was a loud "bang" and the blade disappeared. Inspection of the hot dog's damage revealed that only one tooth had cut the skin .. .. that was determined by the fact that there was only a slight cut on one side of the dog .. .. if two teeth ever touched it, there would have been two defined cuts about

1/8" apart. One day, I'll own my own SawStop. For now, I'll try to just be extra careful and hope for the best.

As to the wet-wood concerns .. .. .. IF the SawStop detects marginal conductivity, it coasts to a stop and flashes a code informing you that it "sees" a problem and that it could trigger an event if you proceed. At that point, you can continue, quit, or put the device in "by-pass".

A triggered event WILL destroy the cartridge ($59.00) and will most llikely damage two or three teeth on the blade .. .. .. if it's a cheap blade, toss it .. .. if it's a premium blade, have the teeth replaced and have the blade sharpened right away. Eithr way, it's better than a trip to the E.R. AND the trauma & heartach of knowing you COULD have been spared the experience if you weren't so cheap and/or didn't happen to care for the way the inventor markets his device.

In time, when the technology becomes more prevalent, I believe you will initially see lowered insurance rates for shops that invest in this technology. Eventually, you will probably see huge premium increases for those shops who resist it.

Perfect-or-not .. .. it's in the cards for the future and there's no getting around THAT.

[Al Bundy]

"RicodJour" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Not going pro or con on this saw thing but comment above...30 yrs ago in the factory if you were an employee you could grab any fork truck and drive it from day-1 on the job. :-)

[Dave Martindale]

But if you have a glove on the other hand, you still don't have a conductive path, and the brake doesn't activate.

I'm not suggesting avoiding it if you think it would increase your safety. At the same time, I'm trying to point out that it doesn't magically make a table saw a safe tool that can be used without thinking about the dangers. It doesn't do anything about kickback, for example.

My car has seatbelts but no air bags. I always wear the seatbelts. But there have been studies showing that when people drive cars that provide more protection in accidents (e.g. air bags, heavy SUVs) they take more risks. If you think a table saw is less likely to hurt you, you'll take less care around it.

Dave

[Anonymous]

Actually, the SawStop DOES do everything possible to prevent kickback .. .. .. because of it's riving knife, it is one of only a very few American saws that can be legally sold in Europe !! !! !!