Ironite Questions?

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Sounds like you've never gotten past the idea that you have to dose the garden with SOMETHING chemical and are dissatisfied with "organic oils and powders" as an option. Organic gardening is not about store products, one ailse for the greenies, three ailses for the people who don't care how much damage they do to the environment. All aisles are equally about tricking people into unnecessary purchases.
Organic home gardening is about balance. A butterfly garden intentionally includes plants butterfly larvae will eat, and the adult butterflies will get nectar and lay eggs. No one says "oh god the butterflies are eating my garden, I have to kill all the butterflies!" though their larvae certainly are eating there. It's about BALANCE so no one insect becomes so numerous a garden is injured. You've obviously been using toxic chemicals so long that you would have to learn patience as well as good gardening practices to begin to restore a baolance.
You've killed foremost the BENEFICIAL insects so OF COURSE harmful ones rush back into their ecological niches and to their favorite plants with no natural predators remaining. The predator insects EVENTUALLY return if you stop killing poisoning their, and your, environment.
A healthy balanced garden does not need chemical fixes. A healthy garden will never arise from putting toxic chemicals into it. Every time you dewscribe another problem that "forces" you to use poisons, you're describing the result of bad gardening practices which can indeed result in an endless "battle" with "weapons" in the war zone you've established. My gardens are places of peace and rarely any upsets. I require no pesticides whether marketed in the organic aisle or the harmful-gardeners aisle. You could turn your war zone into a peaceful garden if you'd restore an organic balance and stop re-toxifying the place every time you get the negative results virtually all toxifiers get.
-paghat the ratgirl
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visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com
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wrote:.

How are they an option when they are useless? Why use them at all when plain water would do the same thing? Sounds like you can't get past the idea that they didn't work. If they worked the insects wouldn't have gotten out of hand now would they?
Organic gardening is not about store products, one

And this has what to do with Ironite and the studies I can't find online showing evidence it's harming people?

That does not apply. Also what has it got to do with Ironite? You obviously haven't been reading my posts since this is a NEW garden that laid fallow for the past 2 years. The first year there were no insect pests. Why would I waste money and time spraying anything on the plants? If there was this magical "balance" there wouldn't be such an infestation of these two pests in a NEW garden. That garden laid fallow under piles of leaves and garden waste for two years after my accident.

What chemical fix? There were no chemicals used until after the insects appeared and organic powers and sprayed did nothing... what does this have to do with Ironite?
A healthy garden

I think you have your posters confused since this is a NEW garden that had never been sprayed with anything.
you're

Huh? What are you talking about? Who are you addressing? This is a NEW garden that lay fallow under leaves and kitchen waste for the last 2 summers!

That does not apply. Also what has it got to do with Ironite? You obviously haven't been reading my posts since this is a NEW garden that laid fallow for the past 2 years. The first year there were no insect pests. Why would I waste money and time spraying anything on the plants? If there was this magical "balance" there wouldn't be such an infestation of these two pests in a NEW garden. That garden laid fallow under piles of leaves and garden waste for two years after my accident.

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Marie Dodge wrote:

water would do the same thing? Sounds like you can't get past the idea that they didn't work. If they worked the insects wouldn't have gotten out of hand now would they?
Sounds like you bought a bunch of expensive "organic" snake oil. No wonder you are pissed! The point is not that you need to buy organic products, it's that you probably don't need to buy anything.
(But check out an insecticide called "BT". There are several varieties and they are *targeted* to specific types of pests, especially caterpillars)
Bob
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wrote:

Her problem was white fly and spider mites, if I remember correctly. Is BT effective against white fly? I've never heard that it was, but it would certainly have been useful a few years back.
Penelope
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Penelope Periwinkle wrote:

I don't know about the white flies, but I'm pretty sure it WON'T work against spider mites.
Oil spray would help with that if the weather is not too hot.
Bob
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Oil sprays do not work against either of these pests. I used Neem Oil and Organicide. Both were 100% useless. Organicide did drive them off for a day or so the FIRST time I sprayed, but they're back heavier than ever now. The spray drips off the plants and they walk right through it like it's rain water. Zero knock-down, zero residual, zero improvement.
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On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 11:30:33 -0400, Penelope Periwinkle

The thing I find which works best is to spray with a relatively hard force under the leaves of any plant which is prone to spider mites. I have Brugmansia's and they are spider mite magnets. Also, spider mites do not like the way seaweed tastes or they are somehow repelled by it. Same thing with whitefly.
The best natural, certified organic pesticide is orange oil. It will kill anything. I hate to suggest it because killingis not my thing, but if people are going to stockpile illegal pesticides like diazinon because they think that's the only thing which works, try using orange oil. I bought a quart of pure orange oil for 13.99 and I use t for everything, including cleaning my house and disinfecting bathrooms, etc. As with anything follow the label directions and do not use it on plastics, plexiglass, etc.
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Right! The plants would have died faster and I would have saved some money, better spent elsewhere. Meanwhile they would have been nurseries for the breeding of resistant WFs and SPs to spread to nearby farms and crops.

What would I need something for caterpillars when the pests are spider mites and white-fly? ??? What organic product kills these 2 resistant pests? They've already wiped out one entire garden.

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Marie Dodge wrote:

IIRC, horticultural oil will take care of both of those.
Insecticides do not work very well on spider mites because they are not insects. Kelthane is a miticide that works OK, but I don't know if it's on the market right now. It was taken off for a while because it contained traces of DDT from the manufacturing process (maybe that's why it worked so well), but I think it's back.
Wife's miniature roses had spider mites this year -- like every year. I sprayed them with water (mites hate that), but what I did that really helped was fertilized the plants. They were stressed because they were nitrogen deficient. I mixed a generous pint of piss in enough water to make 2 gallons (the capacity of the sprinkling can) and watered them with that. Did that twice in one week. It must have been a little strong because it burned a few of the leaves, but the plants took off growing and once they were healthy the mites left. Don't tell my wife that I peed on her roses. Later, I scratched a little superphosphate into the soil.
I've been using the same "liquid fertilizer" sparingly in my vegetable garden this year. It's a lot cheaper than fish emulsion, or even 10-10-10 for that matter.
I noticed today that the tomatoes need spraying with a fungicide. Gonna do that tomorrow. One of the "brown bottle" chemicals, because I think Bordeaux mixture (I have that too) will burn tomato plants.
Bob
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Sorry but that is not true. I bought Organicide (oils) and so far the whiteflies are still on the plants, as are the spider mites. Neem Oil didn't work either. It's been well over a month since I started spraying the plants and so far so response. What did work, but can't be used on Vegetables, is the Systemic I used on the flowers. That worked in about a week. The flowers are clean. The veggies, stinking like cod liver oil are still infested.

I am very familiar with Kelthane. I couldn't find anywhere online that sells it. As far as I know it does contain DDT and is persistent where sprayed. Two sprays and the mites would be gone - and stay gone! I've use it in the past. I was told it's no longer sold in my state. The horticultural sprays don't work on the SMs and WFs here. Perhaps their overuse by organic gardeners has caused tolerance.

Amazing!
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Marie Dodge wrote:

Just plain old horticultural oil, like what you use for a dormant oil spray on fruit trees. (I believe "Vlock" is the brand I have; I bought it at Walmart when they were clearing out the garden stuff to make room for Christmas stuff.) It should have directions on the bottle for using it half-strength as a summer oil spray.
Sounds like you bought snake oil again. ;-)
Bob
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You're right. Organic pesticides are indeed snake oil and just as useless. I bought the mix for summer spray. It's called Organicide. It's made mainly from fish oil and smells bad. The WF and SM don't mind the oil at all, even when drenched in it. It has no effect on them. Neither did Pyrethrum. It seems as each organic snake oil product fails another is recommend. Four have failed now. I'm not keen on running through the large number that may be out there, none working better than these that already failed. It doesn't matter though since that garden has been abandoned. The plants will be pulled up this week and all the debris burned.

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You have clearly worked very hard for many years breeding generation after generation of hardy and spray resistant insects in your garden. In that situation the more simple remedies that work for the rest of us clealry won't work for you. You'll just have to put up with your problems.
I find that simple home made oil spray using kitchen oil kills what I need it to, but then I don't want to have a resistant population of pests. If your insects can breathe through a coating of oil, then yours have clearly developed a snorkel breathing apparatus.
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wrote in message

You have clearly decided you know what happened on this property rather than accept the painful truth. This is the first year these pests have been seen in my and my neighbors gardens. No one sprayed anthing here other than organic bacterial worm killers on the collards. That's just too painful for you to accept isn't it? It rips your guts out and bursts you organic is magic bubble.
In that

So the Organic Dipel dust did all this damage.... my, my!

And all from that Organic Dipel Dust on the collards..... gotcha!

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Hi All,
Sorry for the top post, Idid not want to wade through this long post. You will find that a lot of products have been taken off the market, for one reason or another. Mainly for supposed bad effects. I think you will find that it wiil get worse. I surgest you find something that you can make or mix yourself. Hope this helps you.
Richard M. Watkin.

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It doesn't matter since from what I've read most of the chemical insecticides don't work any better than the organic pesticides out there. The only one I ever found to work is the Dipel dust on the collards. The pests today have good immunity to most pesticides because of all the chemical spraying by farmers and nurserymen over the years. This problem started back over 30 or 40 years ago. Crops were drenched in pesticides. I well remember the planes flying over the potato crops spraying pesticides and fungicides that made us cough and choke. Now this is the fallout. I was sure the oils would work and was really surprised when they did not. Those here who so smugly brag they're gardens aren't bothered by pests will one day go outside like I did, and see pests that they've never seen before in their gardens. Until this year we never had insect or diseases in our gardens either.
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The EPA:
http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/lrpcd/wm/projects/135367.htm
Release of Heavy Metals from Ironite
Ironite is a common fertilizer made from mine tailings available at any lawn and garden store. The presence of heavy metals in Ironite has resulted in its banning in Canada and lawsuits in the United States due to the potential release of heavy metals, most notably arsenic and lead. Bioavailable arsenic released from Ironite is dependent on its mineralogical form. Previous work sponsored by the producer of Ironite identified the arsenic bearing phase as arsenopyrite with the conclusion that arsenic in that form does not pose an ecological threat. However, a closer look with EXAFS has identified the arsenic phase within Ironite as scorodite-like. Scorodite is more soluble than arsenopyrite, in fact, the dissolved arsenic released from scorodite can exceed the US drinking water standard. In addition to the data collected at Argonne National Labs in February 2005 that identified arsenate sorbed to iron oxides as the dominant arsenic bearing phase, secondary identification techniques are currently being used to confirm this finding such as thermogravimetric analysis and Mssbauer spectroscopy.
Contacts:
Kirk Scheckel, 513/487-2865 Aaron Williams, 513/487-2878 Christopher Impelliteri, 513/487-2872 Thabet Tolaymat, 513/487-2860 James Ryan, 513/569-7653 (EIMS#135367)
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Where is the site listing the people, animals or plants injured or killed by the use of this product? I Googled for 15 minutes and couldn't find anything. Not even a cancer cluster around sites where it's used.

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On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:15:41 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@paghat.com (paghat) wrote:

Pags, she's not getting it. When I saw that list of pesticides...who boy. She doesn't get that, if you nurture the soil with compost you make for FREE or buy relatively inexpensively she wouldn't need all the pesticides. But, alas, brick wall and all...
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You're another frothing fanatic who doesn't "get it." All our gardens are loaded with organic matter. Lying by YOU to further your "organic" agenda wont change that fact. Stop using me as an excuse to get on your anti-chemical soap box. Organic matter in the soil has no effect on crop pests and plant disease.
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