What glue's have you had luck with?

[jtpr]

Is glue really permanent? Are different glues used for different woods/applications?

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-Jim ©¿©¬

If you want to reply by email its --> ryan at jimryan dot com Please use BCC and lets all avoid spam

[bb]

I've always been adhesively challenged. Various glues and epoxys just never worked for me. I heard that wood glue was stronger than the wood around it so I decided to see if wood glue would work for me. I glued two scrap pieces of 2X4 that had been ripped in half, one shorter than the other - something like: ___ | | ___ | || | | || | | || | | || | | ||___| |___|

I clamped them and left them over night. The next day I set the long piece on the concrete and went after the short piece with a hammer. I couldn't knock it off. I then tried a 4 pound maul and the wood started to give way but the glue joint did not budge. And this was just a butt joint, no interlocking wood at all. The glue was some Titebond that had been sitting around the shop for a few years. I'm a believer now. I've always used just screws and nails in the past but I'm wanting to do some finer things now. Anyway, I'm sure you'll get some good info on glue from others, but I thought my little experiment might interest you.

Bruce

[ks]

[Leon]

No.

Are different glues used for different

Yes and the better quality and match to the aplication the longer the glue will last.

[Andy Dingley]

Are you trying to unstick it, or hoping it won't unstick ? None are really permanent, unless you're _trying_ to separate them. 8-)

Joints like dovetails were used because they continue to hold after the glue has failed. That said, there's plenty of 400 year old hide glue still sticking mouldings onto furniture all on its own.

Some modern glues (epoxy, polyurethane) are avoided by fine cabinetmakers and musical instrument makers because they are more permanent than the traditional alternative. Centuries later these glues (hide or skin glues, starch pastes) could be safely steamed apart to allow repairs, then replaced. Splitting an epoxy joint apart is almost guaranteed to damage the timber (although you _can_ do this if you use a phenolic filler - google through JAIC)

So "permanent" really depends on your timescale.

I don't believe there are any Mosquito aircraft left flying. They were built from a plywood lamination and the glue is no longer airworthy. Some were glued with an animal glue and they failed by termite attack in hot countries. Some WW2 German aircraft (the copied Moskito) used a similar construction, but didn't even last until their first flights, owing to use of an ersatz glue instead of the intended TegoFilm from a bombed-out factory.

I've just been making sword scabbards - the traditional glue for the two halves is rice paste, made yourself by mashing up last night's supper. Every few years the scabbard can be split apart for cleaning.

So permanence can be either good or bad, depending on your use.

Polyurethane lasts for ages unless there's UV light (sunlight). Some waterproof boat-building glues will fail in minutes with _hot_ water, such as a spill over a kitchen cabinet. Permanence depends on the conditions of service, as much as the raw materials. Proper mixing and application technique is important too.

I don't often use different glues for different timber, but I use a lot of different glues for different materials and different applications.

Timber is all pretty similar, so the same glues work pretty well and they'll have the same strength / weather resistance. Only a few timbers, like teak, cause problems. Teak is oily, so a water-based adhesive doesn't bond well. Either use polyurethane glue or degrease the surface by wiping it down with dichloromethane.

Although this is a "woodworking" group, I work a lot of non-wooden materials. Tonight I was sticking a rubberised cloth lining into a chest with petroleum-based contact adhesive. For putting leather onto antique binoculars I use "Croid", a Victorian recipe for a modified hide glue. The more obscure your materials, the more esoteric your glues become. For museum conservation work I use Acryloid's resins - they're all PVA (sic), but there's about a dozen of them for different materials and different risks of damaging things.

Fresh glue generally works better than old stuff, especially if opened. So get a good glue catalogue, buy what you need for whatever you're working on, and just buy what you need and can use in the forseeable future.

[John McCoy]

"jtpr" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Just as a single point of opinion (your mileage may vary, etc), I use regular old yellow wood glue for everything (either Elmers or Tightbond, whichever happens to be cheaper when I need more). Unless it's going outside, in which case I use epoxy (West System).

John

[Frank Stutzman]

Sorry, but you are using some poor examples here.

There are numerious wooden or partially wooden aircraft from the '20s, '30s and '40s still flying. Notably, Dehavlind Tiger Moths, Stearmans, Wacos and Stearmans. Likewise, some homebuilt aircraft like the Bowers FlyBaby were built in the late '60s and still very airworthy.

The quality of the glue I doubt had very little to do with the fact that airworthy Mosquitos are non-existant. It probaby has more to do with the fact that these planes, like many rare aircraft, are far too valuable for their owners to risk them in what are essentially joy rides.

[Joel Corwith]

Wood magazine recently ran a test of various wood glues. Sept 2004 issue.

Joel. phx

[Andy Dingley]

Even 1910's, if you look hard enough.

The difference is that the Mosquito was a plywood monocoque, laminated to shape. Different joint techniques, different glues.

The problem is severe and grounded all the Mosquitoes about 20 years ago. I have heard there was a solution to fix it, but don't know how successful it was. It's not a problem of glue strength degradation, so much as the glue producing acids when degrading, and these then destroy the wood surface.

I don't know the status of the post-war De Havilland jet aircraft with similar construction (the Spider Crab and it's descendants are basically a short pod of Mosquito fuselage with twin tail booms either side). They were built under less austere conditions, maybe they used different glues.

There's a pack of Spitfires on my doorstep, and the RAF are still flying the last remaining Lancaster. If there was a single Mosquito remaining it might not be flown lightly, but chances are that it still would be flown for the occasional display and memorial flight.

[Preston Andreas]

Perhaps Andy wasn't direct to the point, but he did make some pertinent observations as did you. I have built quite a few different types of furniture and used a glue "type" to fit the situation. I pride myself on my "traditional" style that hopefully will last many years. I don't use hide glue for the purpose up future restoration (mostly because I hate working with it); instead I use epoxy for permanance; although, permanance may actually be measured in less than a lifetime. My furniture is high quality and I feel that at the proper time (hopefully I will be watching from somewhere else), someone will have the proper tools to again make my furniture as stable as when I built it.

I am somewhat an enthusiast for old aircraft, mostly WWII that my father was associated with. Every time I see one crash, I can only think there is one less to exhibit our history. I lack a few hours for my private ticket. My Dad spent many hours in the early years doping the skin and rebuilding wooden ribs in the wings. In fact, during WWII, they supported the Observation aircraft which meant they were real close to the line of battle. They would sleep in tents and they would dig a trench in the tent so they could sleep below ground to escape the constant sniper fire because they were only a hundred yards or so from the battle line. In fact, mechanics would be shot by snipers at times to keep the aircraft from giving real time battle observations. It seems that the observation aircraft was one of the enemies of the Germans. They would do their best to get rid of the coordination effected by the L2's (Pipers), L4's and L5's (Cubs). I don't know for a fact, but someone might help me here. He used a granular glue that was heated up to glue the ribs. Hide glue? And the doping was Cellulose Nitrate?

Now that I have totally gone off topic here, I use the glue that best fits the situation, including PVC's, cyanoacrylate, different types of epoxies, polyurethane, hot-melt, etc....

Preston

[WilliaJ2]

Sure glad you didn't ask about waterproof glues!

Big John

Take out the TRASH for E-mail.

[J. Clarke]

I'm not sure that the two statements are synonymous. No, there are none left flying, although one is being restored. The one at the EAA museum was flown there some time after 1990 (it had been flown transatlantic in that year) and was flyable when put on display and I doubt that it has deteriorated significantly since stored in an air-conditioned building--I suspect that it can be easily restored to flyable condition . The last Mosquito to fly crashed in 1996. I cannot find any information to suggest that the crash was due to structural failure.

Hence the existence of Aerolite, which is still in use.

OTOH, the Go229 at Silver Hill may still be perfectly sound.

Depends on the polyurethane. Aircraft, ships, and trucks are painted with it and it lasts for decades. But that is two-component polyurethane, not the moisture-cure stuff you get at Home Depot.

Which would those be? Resorcinol glue, which is the only "waterproof boat-building glue" in common use other than epoxy, survives several hours of immersion in boiling water. Epoxy doesn't hold up quite as well at boiling-water temperatures.

[J. Clarke]

The last one that was flyable and outside of a static-display museum crashed in '96 I understand. Kermit Weeks' is on permanent loan to the EAA museum--it was flown there sometime after 1990. There's an outfit in Australia that has put together the tooling to make new fuselages, so we may see new production Mosquitos in the future, just as there are new-production FW190s available right now.

>

[jtpr]

Gotta love the wonderful, educational, rabbit holes these discussions go down. I've got to go look for mosquito pictures.

Thanks a lot guys...

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-Jim ©¿©¬

[mac davis]

had an interesting experience last week that might help...

I used elmer's white wood glue years ago, then moved up to their sickly yellow "carpenter's glue"..

After getting a biscuit joiner, I shopped for glue... damn, they're a million kinds/brands..

Almost settled on Gorilla glue, but the instructions said that wood surfaces to be glued should be wiped with a wet cloth first... visions of raised grain kept me from buying it..

Final choice (that trip) was Titebond III "ultimate wood glue", partly because it was in a small bottle and I didn't want a lifetime supply if it sucked..

Glued up a book rest with a couple of biscuits and spread it with an acid brush.. joints seemed to glue up tight and strong, and the friggin acid brush is now very firmly attached to the inside of a plastic 5 gallon bucket/trash can that I tossed it in... this stuff STICKS!!

Mac

[George]

[John McCoy]

"J. Clarke" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Probably in 1993, after Hurricane Andrew destroyed Weeks' museum at Tamiami near Homestead in Sept 92.

John

[Leon]

Actually you want to use a water based glue like the one you used. The biscuit needs to be able to absorbe the water and swell to make a tight bond between the slot and biscuit.

Next time drop the brush in a cup of water.

[mac davis]

thanks to both Leon and George.. my education is continuing and I love it.. Getting back to the shop at 57 years old, after having everything in storage for 10 or 11 years, is an interesting experience... like being in a time warp, with the progress in glues, power tools, techniques, finishes, etc...

Mac

[AAvK]

Well good for you! Many congrats and I hope you enjoy it. At 39 I am just starting as a small hobby. Got into two adult ed. courses.

Alex