PAT / safety-testing - domestic lighting?

An insurance company will clutch at straws to try to avoid a payout. Although not a guarantee, a PAT test is normally understood to involve the application of a label carrying the next inspection date. The inspection date is defined by the environment the item is used in, the device type and previous failiures of that type of equipment.

I would be very very surprised if the PAT tester wasn't held accountable. I dont think anyone is beyond prosecution by the HSE if they have injured themselves or others through negligence, and handing over a dangerous bit of kit seems fairly negligent to me.

AB

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 15:53:45 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wr ote:

ther way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would need to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requirement abo ut 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I rec all correctly).

PAT tested catches fire the next week, HSE or someone might well come look ing for your qualification(s)

tested all it means is that item was safe when tested it means NOTHING else .

ault, neither the machinary or the person doing the tests.

up something that has failed, it can NOT tell you that an electrical produ ct won't go faulty in the future.

But doesn;t have to infact ours no longer use this method and our place is the only client where he is told to include a next test date. He agreed with me that this isnlt required by law.

Teh only requirement is that the device must be safe.

can be for those in rough envioments the item has to be tested more often.

They aren't, unless of course they have caused the problem. Suppose you test a soldering iron, 10 mins later a student or anyone rests the iron on it's mains lead exposing the inner live, earth, nuetral c ables. That is a PAT test FAIL. So is it really your fault if that student or anyone comes along plugs it i n and electrocutes themself is that your fault ? What happens if it happenes a week later, or a month or a year..... Whenn do you think it becomes the PAT testers fault ?

It would be if you handed over kit that faile dit's PAT test.

Interestingly we are having our computerc scince building closed down this weekend because of some electrical installation fault.

Testing isn't a legal requirement.

Testing is a nice easy option fo an MD for instance, to demonstate that he did everything that was reasonable to ensure the safety of his workforce.

I think if there is an accident, the HSE will step in and identify possible causes. In all likelyhood they will come to the conclusion that a different iron or more supervision would be needed.

But if the earth connection in the iron was not making contact and a film of oxide on the separated ends was present, I would imagine that there would be repercussions. If it were a fatality and the company had previous form, then I would certinly hope that the directors were penalised at least.

Students have families who want them home safe too :-)

Well if it passed and no serious errors of judgement occurred, I think he did everything reasonable :-)

Nice to find the problem before the incident :-)

AB

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 16:52:42 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wr ote:

tional costs.

Either way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would need to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requirement about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I recall correctly).

has PAT tested catches fire the next week, HSE or someone might well come l ooking for your qualification(s)

en tested all it means is that item was safe when tested it means NOTHING e lse.

t fault, neither the machinary or the person doing the tests.

cks up something that has failed, it can NOT tell you that an electrical pr oduct won't go faulty in the future.

is the only client where he is told to include a next test date.

Yes I know.

or any admin that haven't a clue about what they are responsible for.

t in and electrocutes themself is that your fault ?

I doubt that as it would be up the the H&S in the instituition.

Nothing to do with PAT testers though.

I want the students to leave the lab as quickly and safely as possible.

Just because something is passed it doesnlt make it safe by default, the u ser still has to know how to use it. That is why I produced my H&S poster regarding soildering irons.

is weekend because of some electrical installation fault.

Buildings been there about 15+ years.

for some value of 'prove' as defined by a court, which be nearer a guess than real proof. CYA.

NT

Electrocution is a notifiable accident.

Everything of relevance would be under scruitiny, if the company had a testing regime, the practice would be evaluated but still wouldn't guarantee that the company wouldn't be penalised. If the company didn't have a testing regime it would be up to them to say what they did to prevent the death/ injury.

That's a totally different ball game, although the same things apply. I'm not sure but are grinding wheels and the like inspected regularly? Lifting tackle is.

As I said, if it's before the incident it's good.

We had a similar problem, wiring not carried out to spec around the same time period too, it was found during a department refit.

I don't know the details, it was put right in a few days and everything went quiet. The person overseeing the original contractors is still in the company and part of the management team :-)

AB

ame ready PAT

a PAT sticker

dditional costs.

n. Either way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would n eed to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requireme nt about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I recall correctly).

ne has PAT tested catches fire the next week, HSE or someone might well com e looking for your qualification(s)

been tested all it means is that item was safe when tested it means NOTHIN G else.

s at fault, neither the machinary or the person doing the tests.

picks up something that has failed, it can NOT tell you that an electrical product won't go faulty in the future.

ce is the only client where he is told to include a next test date.

s it in and electrocutes themself is that your fault ?

Lots of things are, here any cut longer than 1cm HAS to be recorded. But not everything has to be reported to the HSE, maybe a death has to be.

They'd have to do that even if they had PAT tested the device.

remmeber new stuff doesn't have to be PAT tested.

e user still has to know how to use it.

I assume so, but I've no idea, not having one in the lab it doesn't really concern me.

Ours used to be too, every 10 years I think, and that's even though we didn 't use it.

this weekend because of some electrical installation fault.

Yes but why hasn;t it been noticed before is what I'd like to know.

The line is :- "The present configuration of the board is not only contravening health and safety but is a serious fire risk."

But Ive no idea how long it has been like this.

I think the same has happened here but can never be sure.

That makes sense probbaly got promoted as soon as the problem was noticed, same sort of things happen here. if you have someone that can't do the job then promote them because it's easier than sacking them.

Apologies I was wrong. It no longer is listed as reportable. The fact that the victims insn't operational anymore is though :-)

Neither does old stuff. In the event of a groundworker incident involving his brand spanking new drill though, there may be questions as to why it wasn't 110V.

A testing regime should spot this.

Sacking for incompetence is only applied to people like shelf stackers and burger flippers. The insecurity of the incompetents job is inversley proportional to status.

Theres a chap in Washington who is living proof!

AB

t came ready PAT

pened the box,

uck a PAT sticker

nd do a formal

s additional costs.

tion. Either way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you woul d need to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requir ement about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I recall correctly).

g one has PAT tested catches fire the next week, HSE or someone might well come looking for your qualification(s)

has been tested all it means is that item was safe when tested it means NOT HING else.

r is at fault, neither the machinary or the person doing the tests.

it picks up something that has failed, it can NOT tell you that an electri cal product won't go faulty in the future.

place is the only client where he is told to include a next test date.

nuetral cables.

lugs it in and electrocutes themself is that your fault ?

Some of them are, but they don't always know how damged they have become, a n example is James Wilkinson Sword on here, he's imune form electric shock s and the cold or so he claims.

But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet. But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK. A user can do some checks for themselves.

It doesn't have to be 110V. And if it is new it is assumed to be safe to us e.

Yes it should depending on what was tested for. But it still wonlt stop the product becoming faulty the next day, and a sticker saying next test date will NOT change that, which is why I've said we shouldn't be using such thi ngs as next date.

the user still has to know how to use it.

ly concern me.

idn't use it.

own this weekend because of some electrical installation fault.

and safety but is a serious fire risk."

d, same sort of things happen here. if you have someone that can't do the j ob then promote them because it's easier than sacking them.

Yes something like that. :-()

Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my next TV

:-)

Users must inspect items themselves. They may not have an Electrical PHD or even a brain cell to spare after the basic life functional needs are met, but they have a responsibility to themselves and others.

No, but a double insulated appliance, while excellent in the dry workshop can be lethal used at the top of a ladder in wet conditions.

Argos has to sell stuff that is electrically safe amonst other things. If something is unsafe they have to stop selling it.

They donl't have to by law.

Only to a certain level and then it's only knowingly doing something wrong would be a problem.

They are not an authourity.

They do not know what they are selling when it comes to technical/ legal requirements. Or at least those I have interacted with don't.

No, but try getting a payout from an insurance company if the plug top was off.

And if you passed the faulty appliance on....................

Knowingly? The big let out. If knowingly was an excuse for not following legal or safety practices, we may as well rip the rule books up.

They don't have to be, they just have to obay consumer law regarding selling stuff to the general public.

'They' do.

I doubt you've ever spoken to argos, you might have spoken to an assistant at the store who have to follow the rules argos set out in their employment contract.

Why should they get an insurance pay off just because the plug top is off ?

Yes depending on who you are and the situation would be looked into.

No the rule books will account for that. Try sticking your penis in an angle grinder and then claim it's not safe what pay off would you expect ?

No, I followed their website links and went to the head office, I am not stupid, I am fully aware that anyone on the end of a phone line or working behind the counter is not likely to have a clue about the product range.

Should I have felt strongly about the problem or if I thought the public were at serious risk, then I would have persued the problem all the way up.

I think you expect too much of a retailer. Professionally I have had to inform companies that their products were not up to spec and these ranged from switches to EX rated barrier assemblies through to calibration data. All these were supplied by Internationally known manufacturers who were specialists in their field.

All the points raised were serious quality or safety issues.

If errors from these people can hit the market, then I would not have too much faith in Argos acting as a "gateway" for goods.

They wont. Thats why inspection is needed.

If there was no guard fitted to the angle grinder, or an employer issued it to someone untrained in it's use there could well be repercussions. The employer would without question be liable.

Likewise supplying a grinder to someone with mental problems would not be a good idea.

It certainly isn't taking reasonable care.

If said penis was chopped off as opposed to eroded slightly, it would be recordable.

AB

you have interacted with the purchasing department?

I just called trading standards and they came and took an iron away for testing when I pulled the plug out and it left the live pin sticking out of the socket.

The testing showed that it was probably a one off fault as the pins were riveted.

French cr@p.

Yup, Kerry Airport is small. Smaller than ya typical DIY shed, a third of it is space for the bar... take a look on google maps!

Been a few times there over the Stansted route, wondered at the rather different perspective on security the two airports have got.

well it would certainly get the adrenaline flowing Whisky Dave and his bizarre as ever advice.

If you want to use the cafeteria, I helped pay for the thing, so you can ask for a coffee on me.

/the last time I travelled from there to Dublin, they were charging a ta tariff on each passenger for the building of a cafeteria "For the benefit of airport users"

Normally I would vote with my feet, but Kerry does not have a vast quantity of alternatives.

It's many years since I used the airport, it is still small, but I assume the throughput has increased considerably if only because of the number of companiesin and size of the car hire area.

Security wasn't much of an issue then and was reasonably quick.

Oddly enough the speed at which you go through security and the amount of hassle One gets is not at all related to their effectiveness.

I have donated vast quantities of terminal drivers to Birmingham airport but Cork still seem to find the odd one or two that Birmingham missed.

The most fuss and stupidity occurs at Manchester and they are useless.

I did think of arguing that it would take a pilot more than the flidght time to bleed out to a state of unconciousness when stabbed by a steadfast 6", but methinks this wouldnt allow me to keep the thing.

I would guess that Kerry would be a better security experience. Never used Stanstead, but if my trips through Cork and Dublin are anything to go by, I would imagine Kerry is pretty hassle free and efficient in comparison to Stanstead.

AB