PAT / safety-testing - domestic lighting?

Hi All In another life I used to be involved with PAT testing / electrical safety testing & quality management on telecoms equipment - so I understand a bit about electrical safety testing.
Nowadays, I make stained-glass. One of the things I make is a stained-glass lamp - consisting of a 3-sided or 4-sided 'shade', mounted on a timber base. Illumination is using a mains LED or CFL bulb, in a brass bayonet socket. The mains lead is bought in as a new, ready-made, CE-marked assembly, with a switch, moulded-on plug and ferrule ends - which I wire into the screw terminals in the bayonet socket. There's a cable clamp on the mains lead where it leaves the timber base.
I've been selling these for a while - no problem. I spoke to a potential retailer this afternoon (they're part of an electrical wholesaler) who said that he wouldn't be able to sell these lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'
So - anybody out there know if this it true or not?
Short of connecting the L, N, E into the wrong terminals on the bayonet socket (which would be noticed by me on 'final test' as the bulb wouldn't light), I can't imagine a failure-mode that would make the lamp unsafe.
I can (if necessary) buy a PAT tester, test each lamp and stick the sticker on... but is it required?
Any ideas, please? The country is Ireland, but I'm guessing that the same regulations apply in the UK as well... thanks Adrian
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 02/02/2018 08:05, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Impossible to prove a negative but I'm fairly confident there's no legislation in the UK requiring a PAT test. Certainly never seen them on other "craft" lamps. I suspect you have met one of the many varieties of non-tariff trade barrier - of the genus "it's not a legal requirement but we won't sell it without one" ;)
Is there no trade body of lamp makers which might know? The Dublin equivalent of the Worshipful Company of Lightmongers??
PS Labels? I assume the CE & plug are labelled when supplied but thought maximum wattage also required.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 02/02/2018 08:34, Robin wrote:

As they are new and being placed on the Market dont they have to meet the relevant Safety Standard and have a CE mark applied.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Robert wrote:

Well - that's the question. If the components (the lead and the bulbholder) are themselves approved, I'd always worked on the assumption that the whole thing was therefore approved, given that it was assembled by somebody who knew one end of a screwdriver from the other, and that the final test (plug it in, switch it on) would only 'pass' if the wiring was done correctly. I could, of course, be wrong <g>
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Friday, 2 February 2018 10:06:44 UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

them

PAT testing is not legally required for new goods. A safety assessment & CE declaration is for a lot of items.
The approvals cover what is supplied to you, not what you manufacture. You should go through the CE assessment process, in which you would address pos sible issues such as electrical safety, mechanical stability, flammability, suitability for various environments, toxicity of materials etc. With that done you may affix a CE sticker and sell it.
A retailer can of course place any conditions they like on their purchases from you. They may regadr a PAT test as an adequate substitute for your leg al duties, though legally it would not be complaint with CE requirements. I hear informally that CE declarations are often abused.
The first obvious question that springs to mind is are your lamps class I o r II? And are your shades lead soldered?
NT
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 02/02/2018 14:18, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Yes - that seems to be where this is heading..

Just-about do-able, I suppose

I think, in this particular person's case, it's a matter of 'got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning...' <g>
They may regadr a PAT test as an adequate substitute for your legal duties, though legally it would not be complaint with CE requirements. I hear informally that CE declarations are often abused.

Yes - lots of lead solder used in the construction of the lampshade. "You are recommended not to chew this lampshade....."
As to the class I vs Class II - I did check the definitions, and I'm not sure. Three-core mains cable, brass bayonet lampholder (earthed) screwed to wooden lamp-base. Stained-glass shade, pegged and glued into wooden lamp-base. I'm guessing Class I ?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Friday, 2 February 2018 16:41:24 UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

y,

e
en them

al

t
d,

a
h
& CE declaration is for a lot of items.

You should go through the CE assessment process, in which you would address possible issues such as electrical safety, mechanical stability, flammabil ity, suitability for various environments, toxicity of materials etc. With that done you may affix a CE sticker and sell it.

ses from you.

I or II? And are your shades lead soldered?

I'm fairly sure leaded solder is not permitted under ROHS. If the bulbholde r is earthed the luminaire is class I, if compliant. Someone else can comme nt on the shade.
NT
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 02/02/2018 18:43, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

In that case I'd better shut up shop! <g> I would hope that there's a distinction between the use of leaded/unleaded solder in electronics, and leaded solder in traditionally-made craft items....
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 19:31:14 +0000, Adrian Brentnall

Ignore the idiot.
He trawls the internet for technically oriented jargon but is clueless as to what it actually means.
The pillock is obviously under the impression that BC fittings have to be soldered onto.
You could post a thread asking if stained glass is class 1 or 2, but that would be cruel :-)
Any chance of a link to a photo of your merchandise?
One would be very interested in seeing the subject of the discussion.
Regards
AB
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 02/02/2018 19:40, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

There's a few examples here http://shop.inspired-glass.com/collections/lamps shows the general idea.
Most of them are made-to-order - though I do have quite a few 'out' with retailers for customers who want to buy there & then.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 19:47:19 +0000, Adrian Brentnall

Many thanks, they look good. I will keep the link handy. Frankly 20 or so a year surprises me, you should spread the word more.
I was at Cork airport Monday, I assume you are near there?
Birmingham to Cork is a bit of a routine trip for me these days.
AB
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 02/02/2018 20:29, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

Grand - you know where we are if you want to talk...

The lamps are a small part of my work - which ranges from custom-made leaded stained-glass panels (several thousand euro each), through smaller 'tiffany-style' panels for doors and windows, and all the way down to fused-glass 'gift' items and jewellery (under a tenner).
There's also a fairly busy trade in repair and renovation - everything from lampshades to large churches. I keep busy enough <g>

Relatively <g> If you come out of Cork airport and head due West, you'll be at our place in about 70 minutes. We're between Bantry and Skibbereen - well out in the wilds! Cork to us is a Big City <g>

Could be worse places to commute to <g> I like Cork airport - small enough to get my head around. Have you flown into Kerry Airport? - that's fun!
Adrian
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 21:15:06 +0000, Adrian Brentnall

Been past it often. I keep northish though.

Only out, to Dublin.
Kerry is closest to my destination [Fahamore, Castlegregory] but I think the only UK flight in is from Stanstead.
AB
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 02/02/2018 23:44, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

Ah, right

yes - in or out - much the same.

We used it for a holiday (from Stanstead), probably 15 years ago (may have changed since) but they had to clear the cows off the runway before our flight could take off. Back then, there were two gates - being two doors in the same room about 20 feet apart. You half expected to see a bunch of khaki tents, and pilots in sheepskin jackets <g> - nice little airport...
Adrian
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 03/02/18 08:40, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Yup, Kerry Airport is small. Smaller than ya typical DIY shed, a third of it is space for the bar... take a look on google maps!
https://goo.gl/maps/F2noBoXvjwM2
Been a few times there over the Stansted route, wondered at the rather different perspective on security the two airports have got.
--
Adrian C

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 18:15:12 +0000, Adrian Caspersz

If you want to use the cafeteria, I helped pay for the thing, so you can ask for a coffee on me.
/the last time I travelled from there to Dublin, they were charging a ta tariff on each passenger for the building of a cafeteria "For the benefit of airport users"
Normally I would vote with my feet, but Kerry does not have a vast quantity of alternatives.
It's many years since I used the airport, it is still small, but I assume the throughput has increased considerably if only because of the number of companiesin and size of the car hire area.
Security wasn't much of an issue then and was reasonably quick.
Oddly enough the speed at which you go through security and the amount of hassle One gets is not at all related to their effectiveness.
I have donated vast quantities of terminal drivers to Birmingham airport but Cork still seem to find the odd one or two that Birmingham missed.
The most fuss and stupidity occurs at Manchester and they are useless.
I did think of arguing that it would take a pilot more than the flidght time to bleed out to a state of unconciousness when stabbed by a steadfast 6", but methinks this wouldnt allow me to keep the thing.
I would guess that Kerry would be a better security experience. Never used Stanstead, but if my trips through Cork and Dublin are anything to go by, I would imagine Kerry is pretty hassle free and efficient in comparison to Stanstead.
AB
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 02/02/2018 19:47, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

From a safety point of view you may be better off fitting low voltage lamps with a wall wart.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 20:31:43 +0000, "dennis@home"

Why should he change?
I can go to Asda tonight and buy a mains lamp that in all honesty look far less safe than those in the photo.
The wall wart may be a good idea but are you aware that the light still needs PAT testing if testing is required?
AB
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Friday, 2 February 2018 20:52:01 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wro te:

to avoid the risk of expensive legal proceedings

If the light were powered from a SELV wallwart, only the wallawart would ne ed PAT testing - at times when a PAT test is warranted that is. Which it is n't anyway. But with an external wallwart the safety requirements for the E LV luminaire become lower & easier to achieve.
NT
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 3 Feb 2018 02:15:07 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

For arguments sake, you remove the mains lamp from the box and insert one lamp and PSU.
How do you gain?
If the client demands a PAT test on the lamp, it's unlikely that he'll allow the new version to go through also.
A test is a test full stop. You plug a device into the mains, it's a portable appliance. To argue that testing is somehow easier or less stringent by adding a PSU is ridiculous.
AB
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.