PAT / safety-testing - domestic lighting?

Hi All In another life I used to be involved with PAT testing / electrical safety testing & quality management on telecoms equipment - so I understand a bit about electrical safety testing.

Nowadays, I make stained-glass. One of the things I make is a stained-glass lamp - consisting of a 3-sided or 4-sided 'shade', mounted on a timber base. Illumination is using a mains LED or CFL bulb, in a brass bayonet socket. The mains lead is bought in as a new, ready-made, CE-marked assembly, with a switch, moulded-on plug and ferrule ends - which I wire into the screw terminals in the bayonet socket. There's a cable clamp on the mains lead where it leaves the timber base.

I've been selling these for a while - no problem. I spoke to a potential retailer this afternoon (they're part of an electrical wholesaler) who said that he wouldn't be able to sell these lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

So - anybody out there know if this it true or not?

Short of connecting the L, N, E into the wrong terminals on the bayonet socket (which would be noticed by me on 'final test' as the bulb wouldn't light), I can't imagine a failure-mode that would make the lamp unsafe.

I can (if necessary) buy a PAT tester, test each lamp and stick the sticker on... but is it required?

Any ideas, please? The country is Ireland, but I'm guessing that the same regulations apply in the UK as well... thanks Adrian

Reply to
Adrian Brentnall
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Impossible to prove a negative but I'm fairly confident there's no legislation in the UK requiring a PAT test. Certainly never seen them on other "craft" lamps. I suspect you have met one of the many varieties of non-tariff trade barrier - of the genus "it's not a legal requirement but we won't sell it without one" ;)

Is there no trade body of lamp makers which might know? The Dublin equivalent of the Worshipful Company of Lightmongers??

PS Labels? I assume the CE & plug are labelled when supplied but thought maximum wattage also required.

Reply to
Robin

As they are new and being placed on the Market dont they have to meet the relevant Safety Standard and have a CE mark applied.

Reply to
Robert

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box, upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Reply to
Andy Burns

HI Robin Thanks - the more I think about it, the more its seems like a simple case of "don't want to.." on behalf of the retailer. The lead assembly has all the usual certification marks moulded into the plug and the torpedo switch, the brass & ceramic lampholder has a maker's name and part number.

I guess, being pedantic, there's nothing to stop some dingbat from wiring the live to the brass lampholder, but, if you did that, I doublt that the lamp would light - so it'd be noticed.

On labelling - I guess it'd do no harm to have a little sticker on the shade that says 'Use CFL or LED bulb only' - I could do that.

Thanks for the thoughts.. Adrian

Reply to
Adrian Brentnall

Although PAT testing of second hand items is fairly common, new items are not normally tested.

PAT testing is "in service testing" [IEE ], therefore it does not apply to unused kit that has yet to be brought into operation.

When I was involved, testing had to take into account the actual environment the units were used in.

Try looking at other bits of mains kit the vendor has for sale, I suspect that the request was made on the whim of an overkeen junior.

If low value items are on sale and "tested", it would be interesting to make a purchase and examine the records for said item.

Should I produce a light from scratch, with a standard size BC socket, I would not and could not sell it as anything constructed needs to have live terminals that are inaccessable to anyone without some form of tool.

As BC sockets have been with us for years, we tolerate them in the same way as cigarettes and motor vehicles.

BC sockets have been the cause of a few deaths, the publicised ones being due to bulb manufacturers failing to cut the tails of their bulbs after they were soldered to the end caps.

AB

Reply to
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp

Well - that's the question. If the components (the lead and the bulbholder) are themselves approved, I'd always worked on the assumption that the whole thing was therefore approved, given that it was assembled by somebody who knew one end of a screwdriver from the other, and that the final test (plug it in, switch it on) would only 'pass' if the wiring was done correctly. I could, of course, be wrong

Reply to
Adrian Brentnall

I did mention the CE and plug labels which the OP said came with the lead assembly. I don't know that the CE mark have to be applied more than once.

As regards the "safety standard", the low voltage directive essentially applies IEC standards which the OP manifestly needs to meet. But I don't know that that means PAT testing is necessary (let alone sufficient).

You do remind me though that the Directive does require some documentation to be kept. I've no idea where the regs relevant to the OP are to be found but the Commission's guide to the Directive

has a not so-little-list (pp66-67). The OP may well think it was written with the likes of Bosch, Philips, Siemens etc in mind; I couldn't possibly comment.

Reply to
Robin

Thanks Andy It does seem a bit strange. I can buy me a little PAT tester (probably 2nd-hand) - and do a formal test, and stick a sticker on the lamp - but then (to be strictly correct) you're into the calibration thing, which carries additional costs. Bit of a slippery slope, perhaps?

Reply to
Adrian Brentnall

The requirements for PAT are some what flexable. Some thing that is constantly being moved, unplugged plugged etc etc it's probably wise to PAT every year or really heavy more frequently. Something that just sits there you could argue that every 5 years is fine.

But PAT only aaplies to stuff in service. Buy something new you don't have to PAT it before putting it into service.

This is what applies to new goods. Also the labeling, that annoying flag on the flex at the plug end telling you the colours and use, in the case of a lamp the maximum wattage of bulb and how close the lamp cab be to other objects and I suspect that has to where someone changng the bulb will see it, a ratings plate (voltage, max load, AC/DC etc).

Reply to
Dave Liquorice

That's what I thought. Perhaps he's using 'PAT testing' as shorthand for 'safety-testing in final production' or somesuch...?

Yes

He's more of a senior than a junior Apparently the man who does all of their lighting repairs for them.

Everything in the shop is new - so no second-hand ('should have been retested') kit.

Reply to
Adrian Brentnall

Yes but he is saying that your new stuff needs testing. One therefore assumes everything on sale is tested also.

If all items are tested they should have documentation and a unique identifier.

Does he sell neon mains testing screwdrivers BTW? :-)

AB

Reply to
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp

[Snip] I bought some "disco" lights from CPC a few years ago and, out of interest, PATed them. Two passed and one failed on the earth bond bit. I didn't send it back - simply sorted it.
Reply to
charles

Ahem, I think you may need to think of facing the consumer safety inquisition (complete with comfy chair) asking you eg

- "what if the user inserts a 1000W LED bulb like what they may market one day?"

- "where's your evidence that consumers distinguish between bulbs and won't insert a 150W GLS?"

I suggest you pick a bulb (say 25W?); test the lamps by leaving them running, in a room at (say) 30 degrees; check that no part of the lamp is dangerously hot (sorry, can't recall - if I ever knew - what that means!); and label the lamps "maximum 25W (or whatever)". And document it all.

May seem a bit much but remember, no price is too high to save the life (or burnt finger) of one EU consumer.

Reply to
Robin

More to it than that. You need to be qualified to apply that sticker. ;-)

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

No earth connected at all?

Reply to
alan_m

Several fault possibilities including the ones that your ready-made CE-marked assembly is actually faulty.

As well as insulation testing LN-E you should probably also check that the switch, if single pole, is actually wired in the L.

For your own safety, "final (functional) test" on the mains should be preceeded by safety testing.

Owain

Reply to
spuorgelgoog

I purchased a couple of neon screwdrivers from ebay recently. It wasn't for the mains testing functionality, which I'd never use, but because the picture showed a long thin blade insulated down to near the tip.

What turned up was a heap of shit and nothing like the picture shown in the ebay listing.

The neon, spring and metal cap came as a DIY kit of parts. I suspect it comes this way as the cap doesn't hold the neon and spring into handle of the screwdriver too well and is likely to fall off. It is possible to install the neon module the wrong way around so that it doesn't make contact with the metal shaft of the screwdriver.

The blade was only insulated for less than half its length.

Rather than being thin the blade it flared out close to the tip and I suspect wouldn't fit into the terminal holes in most/all electrical sockets.

Even considering the dubious nature of these types of mains testers these examples take safety to a new level of uncertainty.

Reply to
alan_m

The HSE clearly states that, in the UK, new equipment does not require a formal PAT. (Answer five here):

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The last answer also tells you that there is no actual legal requirement to PAT at all. In any case, it only applies to equipment in the workplace, which I suspect is not the main market for stained glass shades.

OTOH, you should be complying with the low voltage directive 2014/35/EU. Simply buying in CE marked components and assembling them won't be enough. You will need to do your own assessment of conformity and apply your own CE Mark. This guidance to the UK regulations that bring the directive into UK law ought also to apply to Ireland:

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Reply to
Nightjar

Hmm - I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition

The lamps aren't really designed for incandescent bulbs - they will get hot! - I suppose a label that says 'Max 15w incandescent or 40w (say) led / cfl' could cover it...

There was a documentary about air-crash investigation some years back - a passenger jet had crashed on landing because somebody had fitted an hydraulic non-return valve back to front (after going to the trouble of making up two adapters in order to make it fit the wrong way round). The man investigating said "We can design for idiots - but not for bl**dy idiots"

Reply to
Adrian Brentnall

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