OT: How the electric car revolution could backfire

[Capitol]

Was overtaken by a house in Mississippi, I was doing 80mph! That was just before the spent bullet hit the rear trim panel. No, I wasn't trying to escape!

[damduck-egg]

There are lots of places in the UK that supermarket may have replaced the in town service station/ garage as you suggest with a 12 pump site on the edge of town especially the land of such in town garage premises is valuable for building on.

But to take the area where I grew up, before you even reach the supermarket site 14 miles away I can recall the garages in at least 10 villages that are in the hinterland of that town no longer have any fuel pumps. Our nearest village had two garages when I lived their,even allowing that some only had 3 pumps* that is more than 30 pumps that have gone.

• the sequence tended to be used to be one regular , one Super with a derv on the side amongst the rubbish . Then leaded and unleaded with Derv on the side but rubbish tided up, Then Unleaded and DERV moved alongside, the old DERV site becoming the rubbish skip again.

Then closure of the fuel side as insurance costs rose and at the same time sales became less because people filled up at the supermarket when they could but moaned like hell when the local supply went because now they have to drive miles when they find there is no fuel in the shed for the mower.

A lot gave up fuel when many owners who had started these garages after WW2 with a little mechanical knowledge they had gained and some cash finally retired ,many had kept the fuel going out of habit and it was their family who took over or new owners who on actually looking at the figures found fuel sales were not worth bothering with. You stop work on an expensive car or tractor at a fairly good rate per hour and by the time you taken somebodys cash and got into rhythm again 20 minutes has passed. In which you earnt about 30p, hardly paid for the soap and swarfega to wash your hands to serve them.

G.Harman

[Tim Streater]

Meaning what? And there's still the issue of having enough of it in your car to give a useful range.

[Tim Streater]

Me too. Is anyone aware of any *unexplored* battery technology that has the potential for a substantial improvement over where we are now?

[Mark Allread]

+1

I hated the M1 when driving for work and always chose the A1.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Lithium air has the energy density, BUT its about as vile as it gets in terms of being tricky and unstable.

Bit like fusion research. The theory is sound but the practicalities screw you.

"...the theoretical specific energy of a non-aqueous Li-air battery (in the charged state with Li2O2 product and excluding the oxygen mass) is ~12 kWh/kg. This is comparable with the theoretical specific energy of gasoline (~13 kWh/kg). In practice, the Li-air batteries with a specific energy of ~1.7 kWh/kg at the cell level have been developed. This is about 5 times greater than that of a commercial lithium-ion battery, and is sufficient to run a 2 ton fully electric vehicle (FEV) for ~500 km (310 miles) on one charge just using 60 kg of batteries..."

Given that electrical efficiency is up in the 90%, compared with diesls in the high 30%, that means that an electrical system could weigh less for a given range than a fuel solution, and puts electric jet (ducted fan) airliners in the frame as well as making electric propeller aircraft a no brainer if the cost is right.

Especially as lithium air starts out light for takeoff and ends heavier once the battery is discharged.

However, its probably two decades away IF it ever works well enough.

The key thing in vehicles is the amount of time a human being can drive in a day, agaiunst te time mneeded for sleep.

I've done a 24 hour drive of around 1200 miles Thats probably never possible with electric, but doing a 8 hour stint of say 500 miles should be all on with a fully charged Li-air car.

There is a question of how much lithium there is economically accessible as well.

Its plentiful enough overall, but seldom in huge deposits

reckons there are 14 million tonnes in known reserves, At 50kg a car, thats enough for 280 million cars. Which is not a huge amount.

Wiki reckons there are a billion cars in use worldwide.

In conclusion: It's in the balance. Given massive access to cheap primary energy (nuclear) and the ability to recover e.g. lithium from seawater simply by throwing (dirt cheap) energy at it, and a viable reasonably safe, high discharge, efficient turnround, long life lithium air technology, a totally nuclear electric 'fossil free' society is possible.

Just not with renewables. :-)

And of course there comes a point where the actual heat generated by all those power stations itself starts to affect climate.

Personally I think it will eventually happen, but not in the way everyone thinks it will.

Nor as fast.

But once viable (technically and economically) Li-air is there, it will wipe everything else off the map.

No need for subsidy.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Ah - sorry Charles. I read your post as being the A1 was faster - even if going to Edinburgh, which I don't go near when travelling to Aberdeen.

[tim...]

subject and object got all mixed up

the "one" that you are buying is the object in the bit that you snipped (the non electric car)

tim

[tim...]

well not to the house agreed (I live in one such)

but there is space on the street (here)

I'm just concerned that it will cost perhaps 100 times the cost of installing a personal socket in my house,

Well not my house cos I'm on the second floor.

But there no reason why those on the ground floor can blag the parking space by the window and run a cable out thorough it. Leaving only those of us on the upper floor to contribute to the costs of retro fitting the street

tim

[tim...]

I only ever did 200 per week as a working person

now I'm (nominally) retired I do 200 per month

and as such I cannot justify a new car at all

where are all the sub 2000 pound electric cars (with reasonable battery life left) going to come from?

tim

[Dave Plowman (News)]

There aren't any supermaket filling stations in Central London - that I can think of. Land is too expesive. There are some filling stations that now include a 'local' branch of a supermarket, though. Which doesn't stock the cheaper ranges, or have the offers. Or the cheaper fuel, come to that.

However, plenty filling stations have closed down. I can think of three close to here.

You have to go to the suburbs to find a large supermarket with filling station and cheap petrol.

[tim...]

well if you are going to be silly

I once overtook a tube train on the A1 (somewhere around Leicestershire)

[tim...]

wouldn't have a clue

was quoted 650 for the bearing by a garage

in the latter case, yes, but it was timed inconveniently

tim

[tim...]

dunno

what does it matter

tim

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Does every house need parking for their own cars and those of any vistors?

But diesels will likely just be a memory long before electric cars are the only ones.

I'm sure it might be a problem for someone who drives all day every day. But is this that common?

When I drive the length of the country, it's not possible to know the exact travel time in advance. You can easily get stuck in a traffic jam for hours. So just allow enough time for the journey. The same would apply to re-charging.

If the only problem is when going on the odd long trip - as I suspect is the more usual - then we'll just have to put up with it. If the Tories get their way and ban petrol cars.

[charles]

well, no, you wouldn't; stay om motorway until you've got pasr Stir;ing

[Huge]

Strange, isn't it? I wonder why?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

The M1 must also be the most boring motorway ever. Hence preferring the M40 - which is also more convenient for me.

[Mark Allread]

Maybe the fact that it is, mostly, a dual carriageway means that the aggressive drivers think it will be too slow for them as there is no 'fast lane'.

I generally found it a quicker route unless I had to go to north of Newcastle where it was a nightmare from that so called angel northwards,

[dennis]

They certainly have improved as ~20 years ago they wouldn't last that long.

In the '70s when I got my first car bearings and stuff like that lasted a few thousand miles if you were lucky or a bit longer if it wasn't a British car.