Mostly Vegan - Ping Tim

[T i m]

<snip>

And the real irony is that it's 'nice' for everyone including all the sea creatures that don't have to suffer the waste runoff polluting their environment or the methane that is 100x more potent a greenhouse gas compared with CO2 (all be it it that it only lasts 10 years it's still 10 years more than necessary (to those levels)).

I did starting 5 years ago (doctors orders) and yes, it's nice to be able to 'stock up' on milk and have it ready to use whenever we want, straight out of the cupboard (if you haven't put one in the fridge ready).

I have been cooking all sort of things (cakes etc) using vegan milk and butter and really don't find it an issue ... which it isn't of course, especially if you care about why you are doing it.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Some do, some done, some even get broody and sit on unfertilised eggs. They are all individuals. ;-)

I think they use them to replenish stuff, rather than a food choice as such?

They are interesting animals. ;-)

<snip>

Again, you can get close with some. Daughter went to a rescue in Kent and was holding a chicken and stroking it and it was obviously happy / comfortable as it went to sleep. ;-)

Hehe.

<snip>

Ok, that's obviously much better than where they started their lives, even from the lower numbers.

I think they suggest chickens (like many other birds of course) have several vocalisations, warnings, greetings etc and they can recognise the others 'voices'.

Turkeys can 'learn' a very large area of ground, now where they are and how to get home (we know many birds migrate thousands of miles and get back to the same nest but many may not attribute 'just a Turkey' with any skills outside of it's taste at xmyth.

They can also run quite fast, wild ones can fly and they swim pretty well.

Pigs are the *4th* most intelligent animal ... but look how we treat them, *just* turning them into a commodity. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[Tim Streater]

Whatever for?

Look, if you're that bothered by your planetary footprint, you could always cease to exist. That way, you could avoid the production of around half a ton of CO2 each year.

[Fredxx]

Once again you resort to abuse in a failed argument. When will you learn.

That's right, we have evolved to drink milk into adulthood.

If it doesn't matter don't abuse those with differing views.

Since you would advocate that the calf has it's throat cut while still alive it says more about your motives, fuelled bu envy, than you can ever understand.

And the cow will live a lot longer than she would otherwise.

Quite, you've admitted you're sick enough to cut throats without being shot in the head.

Yes, it's very nice thank you. I have it on my cereals and my hot drinks. You should remember that it tastes very nice.

[Fredxx]

I have a couple of cartons of UHT milk for those occasions. Talking of CO2, have you considered the miles and CO2 from transporting soya and other milk substitutes?

I thought the main issue with cattle was methane, but it's rarely mentioned there are food additives that can stop the production of methane, if it was thought important.

I find milk I keep in the fridge will last a week or more.

YMMV

[RJH]

Animal welfare, environmental sustainability, convenience, price (especially if you make your own - 1p/pint), it doesn't taste bad at all.

Might be on your options list. Not mine.

[RJH]

Not sure why, but I can't stand the taste of UHT cow's milk. One of the few things I'm fussy about.

Yes, lots of reasons, including methane.

It did/does. You can get the filtered cow's milk - I think that lasts a while. But lockdown prompted big, monthly, shops and a rethink.

[Richard]

Intrigued. Make your own what at 1p/pint?

[RJH]

Oat milk

[T i m]

<snip>

<snip>

A classic example of a lack of lateral thinking by a left brainer there. Or maybe he realised men still had nipples and Rob was expressing his own milk.

No wonder they can't bring a balanced argument to the table ... ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Wed, 12 May 2021 05:12:55 +0000 (UTC), RJH [e-mail] wrote: <snip>

You are not alone there. ;-)

<snip>

As mentioned we were already enjoying the health benefits of not consuming dairy (as instructed by my doctor) for 5 years or so now but we still generally bought it on our weekly (on foot) shop.

Since lockdown we didn't want daughter having to shop for us that frequently so have tended to buy our oat, soya (that comes from Europe and can be grown here) and unsweetened soy in bulk. So if she's in Aldi and we don't have a lot on the list she might buy a tray of each and they just get stored in the utility room till needed. As we get close to finishing one we put a new one ready in the fridge and so far we have only had one (in all the time we have been consuming better milks) that was 'off' (well actually it went off (thicker) in the fridge but I don't think we had it in there / opened for that long).

Plus non-milks don't need to be homogenised so any potential risks associated with that are eliminated and they contain 90% less cholesterol etc.

I did buy a new blender after you mentioned you make your own oat milk and keep some oats in stock ready to make some more (our old blender hadn't been used for years and leaked) but as yet we haven't actually run out. But from our first experiment it worked pretty well and so I'm confident it would work even better in the new blender. The only difference may be if the oats aren't fortified with B12 like the commercial oat milk is?

Daughter has been getting us Kavanagh's:

Cheers, T i m

[Spike]

You seem to have forgotten - always assuming you could have remembered it in the first place - that the last time you raised this particular non-problem, you were informed of a cheap and simple method of eliminating methane from cow farts.

And, if you are concerned about the issue, why do you own a pet dog, that has an annual CO2 footprint measured in tons?

Is this a case of your two-faced "Don't do as I do, do as I say"?

[Tim Lamb]

In message [e-mail]>, Tim Streater [e-mail] writes

I'm curious about this 60,000 litres of water business. I suppose it could be linked to the rainfall on an acre or so of grass?

>

[Spike]

This new proposed legislation might well end up forcing pet owners treat their pets to the same standard as farm animals.

Read the shocking words a woman who fed her puppies an all VEGAN diet told animal inspectors as they discovered the malnourished dogs. One did not recover despite medical help and had to be put to sleep.

[Spike]

It probably stems from a wild over-exaggeration of the sort T i m has provided us with for quite some time now.

[RJH]

Possibly - could you share your source? I'd add that I made the claim, not Tim. Happy to be corrected.

The estimates I generated from a variety of sources gave cow's milk 600 - 1000 litres of water per litre of milk. There is a bundle of variables that inform where on the scale it is. I chose 628l in anticipation :-) (ref. Poore and Nemecek)

Oat milk about a tenth of cow's milk. But that's partly due to irrigation.

[RJH]

I think they are homogenised to an extent insofar as they seem to be mixed far more thoroughly than I can manage. Not sure about heat treating but that wouldn't surprise me for 'long life'. Although it doesn't affect the taste, the 'slurry' is one of the downsides of home made . . .

That's true. I've added bits and pieces, informed largely by ingredients lists on cartons. But generally don't bother - just oats and water.

I've refined my process and it's made the texture a lot better. By volume, 1 part oats to 6 parts water. Put it through the blender for about 10 seconds (I've only got a smoothie maker type thing, so use that). Then through a filter. I've got a really fine tea strainer that clogs near instantly. But stirring the mixture while it's in the strainer gets it through quickly enough. I'll do that twice. Still not perfect but getting there.

Yes, suspiciously close to Flahavan's, and another not-so-subtle bit of marketing :-)

I've been using the Aldi version for milk, and the proper for porridge. Not sure I could tell the difference in a blind test.

I have a feeling that a cheaper, smaller oat might be better for milk - even the economy oat Ready Brek dust-like substance. I'll give it a whirl next time, and drive the price right down :-)

[T i m]

<snip>

Assuming any area is only irrigated by rain (and we know it isn't in many countries around the world, we are 'lucky' that way in the UK) the other uses in cow milk production that don't typically exist with alternatives are:

The cows drinking water directly. The irrigation of imported additional feedstuffs (concentrates / ruffage). The cleaning of dairy parlors (wash water). The cleaning of milk storage equipment. The cleaning of abattoirs. Cleaning within bottling plants.

There is also the indirect consideration of the loss of rain in areas that have had rain regularly previously due to the impact of cow livestock methane on GW. Wamer air can hold (also not release) more water than cold.

There is also the risk of dairy cow waste polluting existing water sources / table from runoff during storms etc.

Cheers, T i m

[RJH]

Yep, agreed.

To counter slightly, Tetra packaging is fairly obscene. We have *one* place in Sheffield that accepts it for recycling. I'd guess millions of the things go into landfill (or incineration in Sheff) here every month or so . . .

Of course it's used for dairy too - but exclusively for non-dairy IME. Can't beat a bit of thread drift . . . :-)

[Spike]

Quite a few weasel-words in there, suggesting what follows is supposition piled upon supposition?

Abattoirs are cleaned anyway, so why lard milk production in there too?

Keep larding it in, T i m , and you might get the answer you want?

And that lards into milk production in what way, exactly?