Sawstop cabnet saw nearing reality

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Good point. The fence from my Craftsman saw with 22" table could probably be made to fit. When I bought my new saw I went and bought a new fence with it. How dumb was that? Ed

[Todd Fatheree]

My WAG is that people who think an airbag is a substitute for a seat belt wouldn't be wearing the seat belt even if the airbag was not present.

Maybe there's a difference between a 60mph crash and a 160mph crash that changes the usefulness of the airbag.

Well, the fatality rate per 100 million vehicle miles traveled was at a historic low of 1.51 in 2002. I don't know when airbags went into widespread use, but the fatality rate has dropped or stayed the same every year since at least 1994, which was the earliest table I could find in the

60 seconds I searched for it. From 1994 to 2002, the fatality rate has dropped 13%. Is all of the decrease due to airbags? I doubt it. I'm sure you can factor in safer vehicles and increased seat belt use (it's gone up from 61% in '97 to 79% now), plus a few other effects.

todd

[Todd Fatheree]

Ed, Ed, Ed. You must have money growing on trees going out and splurging for a new fence when you had a perfectly good Craftsman fence available. Seriously, I have what I believe is a decent fence in the Delta Unifence, but if I sold my saw and bought a new one, I would expect that the fence would go with it. I don't have a lot of data to go on here. I've only bought one table saw up to now and the fence came attached.

todd

[Ron Magen]

Charlie, Unfortunately {or fortunately - if you believe in Darwinism}, the ONE piece of absolutely vital Safety Equipment can't be either bought or legislated.

The one between your ears.

Regards & Good Luck, Ron Magen Backyard Boatshop {as I mentioned to JT . . . still have all my fingers & toes, my OEM teeth & eyes, and enough hair to be a 'donor' }

"Charlie Self" wrote ... SNIP But I still wouldn't want legislation telling me that the next time I got a table saw, I'd have to double its price to pay for safety equipment I won't buy on my own.

[Tom Veatch]

Working strictly from memory, I seem to recall that during the '50s and '60s there was something on the order of 50k highway fatalities per year in the US. Nowadays, I believe it is closer to 30k. If those numbers are correct, I'd say the highways are somewhat safer today than they were 50 years ago. I'll leave it to someone else to attribute the reason for the improvement.

Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA

[Charlie Self]

Ron Magen responds:

True enough. A quick OSHA check shows that in 1999 there were 3 reported incidences of table saw accidents, 2 with amputations and 1 with partial. The following year saw 1 injury reported, no amputations. The reports all indicate a degree of Darwinism in action, and, of course, don't show a full spectrum of amateur and pro workers, but do give an indication of the scarcity of the type of wounds the SawStop is designed to prevent.

There just are no overall figures, at least that I can locate, that show what kindo of real value this device might have. And reading recently of false indications causing the SawStop to activate makes me even more leery of its forced use. Those may or may not be true. There really needs to be some industry study in this area.

Charlie Self "If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave it to." Dorothy Parker

[George]

Yep, had some of those "automatic" seatbelts which qualified, initially. Now, of course, the law has been modified.

As we know from recent M$oft legislation, you've gotta give it away if it becomes popular....

[George]

And with more miles and vehicles, too.

MI just went to primary seatbelt enforcement a year or so ago, because that, as I mentioned earlier, is the best restraint.

I'm sure that remark about what idiots think about is really tongue-in-cheek. Something is still better than nothing, and idiots seldom have any thoughts which interest me, anyway.

'60s there was something on the order of 50k highway

those numbers are correct, I'd say the highways are

else to attribute the reason for the improvement.

[Doug Miller]

Why not the FAA? Because it's pointless. Most deaths in aircraft crashes are caused by fire, either directly or by smoke inhalation, not by impact injuries.

Why not racing organizations? Pointless again. It's evidently escaped your notice that fatalities in auto racing are actually rather rare events; roll bars and five-point harnesses do a pretty good job of protecting the drivers. Furthermore, racing crashes tend mostly to be sideswipes, either with another car or with a retaining wall. It's difficult to see that airbags would provide any meaningful additional protection. Particularly in collisions at 200+ MPH.

Whether there has been a reduction in highway fatalities since airbags were mandated is irrelevant: most collisions occur on secondary roads.

In the United States at least, fatalities from automobile accidents have been declining for a number of years, even though the number of cars and the number of drivers have been increasing, and the distance driven per driver per year has been increasing even faster. I won't claim that's due entirely to airbags; obviously other factors such as mandatory seat belt laws, seat belt education, and numerous improvements in the design of both vehicles and roads have contributed to the decline as well, but it would be silly to think that airbags have had no effect.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

[Doug Miller]

SWMBO and I saw a different type of airbag injury when we stopped to help another motorist who had just hit a deer. He'd been holding the steering wheel by the spokes instead of by the rim. When the airbag deployed, it threw his right hand back into his face, giving him a fat lip and a cut on the back of his hand (from his teeth). He had no other injuries, despite squarely hitting a good-sized doe at about 70 mph. Neither the deer nor the car survived.

The real irony here is that we were on our way out to the forest to go deer hunting -- and that was the only deer we saw all day. :-(

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

[J. Clarke]

No, it has not "escaped my notice". My point obviously escaped yours.

Never mind, if you are picking at points this trivial I'm not wasting any more time on you.

I notice that you do not mention the increased quality and availability of trauma care.

[bridger]

and consider the consequences of a false deployment of that air bag at

200 MPH in a cluster of cars when one bumps into another....

[Upscale]

Senseless statement. About as bad as saying that seat belts are dangerous because you might accidentally choke yourself with one.

[Todd Fatheree]

Are you friggin' kidding? Have you ever watched a NASCAR race? How often do the cars bump each other from behind? I'll answer it for you...it happens a lot. There's a very real danger of having a false deployment under those conditions. And at this point, I'd hazard a guess to say the additional safety to be had by an air bag in a Cup car is minimal on top of four-point harnesses and a HANS device. I'd also say it's dubious that an air bag would even be an effective aid in a 160mph collision

todd

[Doug Miller]

I guess it did. I wasn't completely sure that you had one there to begin with.

My point was that the merits of using airbags in passenger automobiles are not diminished in the least by the failure to employ airbags in other situations where they are manifestly far less useful.

Perhaps you should have been more precise with your terminology. :-)

So I missed that one. Doesn't change the final conclusion: it would be silly to think that airbags have had no effect.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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[Doug Miller]

I don't see that as a "senseless" statement at all. Have you ever watched stock car racing? Seems like those guys bump into each other all the time. Some of those bumps are surely hard enough to deploy airbags in a car so equipped. And it's got to be thoroughly disconcerting to have one of those things go off in your face when you're not expecting it. Being startled at 200 mph is a Bad Thing.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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[bridger]

nope.

on the race track with all of the jostling for position and stiff suspensions and whatnot the opportunities for false deployments is much higher than for the highway. at 200MPH the result is certain to involve the loss of control of a race car, generally in the middle of a pack of other race cars. I'd guess airbags in race cars would cause more accidents than they would be worth, IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

for that matter, seatbelts DO present a choking hazard. I don't know how much of one, but it is not zero, probably highest for kids and very short people. however, they present a net gain in safety for passenger vehicles.

[George]

One of the reasons for the adjustable height types. And child seats.

Standard seatbelt injuries are clavicles (collarbones) and for those wearing them high on their bellies, against advice, possible spleen. Other than that, abrasions.

Seems the only thing that works as advertised, even when you do nothing right, is that airbag.

[Bay Area Dave]

tell that to the several hundred people who have died as a result of airbags. Granted, air bags are better than just seat belts, but they DO sometimes result in death when deployed.

dave

[Bob Schmall]

If I came away from a crash at 200 mph with just a broken clavicle I'd be very happy, thank you.

I have direct knowledge of the value of seat belts. I was aligning cars on the false grid while a race was running when an MG was forced off the track by another racer. The MG slid on gravel straight onto the end of the metal Armco barrier. The barrier speared completely through the center of the car and extended for 6 feet beyond its rear end. (I have photos of this)

When the dust cleared and I saw what had happened I didn't want to get any closer. But the driver walked out, saved by the engine block that had deflected the Armco and by his seat belts. I saw him in the control tower later that day and he said that all he got were belt bruises.

Mark me on the anti-air bag side for race cars. There is no resemblance between driving at racing speeds and driving on the highway, and the false deployment of an air bag in a Cup car would be a disaster.

Bob