FWW had a short write up about the first pre-production sawstop cabnet saw.
More pictures at
Taking a long time to get into production though. IIRC it has been over a year since they started taking orders. The next release of Windows will probably be out before Saw Stop. Ed snipped-for-privacy@snet.net
IIRC, they were taking orders, with pre-production saw models sitting on the floor, at IWWF in '02. That's well over a year ago, and I'm not sure why anyone would write those saws up as "new" pre-production models.
Charlie Self "If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave it to." Dorothy Parker
Two years+ is a long time to wait if you need or want a new saw. I looked at their web page. Price of the saw seems OK, but they I noticed, the fence is optional. Gets pricey all of a sudden. I'd like to see it in production a reasonable cost for those that want to buy them, not be forced into it. Ed
On 21 Jun 2004 07:45:36 -0700, brian_j snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (brian roth) vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!:
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There was some simplistic prat who said "If you invent a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door." They forgot to include economics.
IIRc the Saw Stop was a significant part of the cost of a saw. pphhptht!
IME, WRT the sawstop, as with all "bright ideas" if they (a) take the long sales view (b) really care about safety
and rather than trying to enforce their market, they then price the thing to _sell easily_, (rather than pay for development costs in 6 months), then there is no _need_ for the "enforced view".
Reality. X percent of the saw-using community suffer loss of a weener sausage during their career or hobby life. Cost your mousetrap at much more than this, and Govt intervention (insurance lobby groups) is your only hope.
There are those that _succeed_ in their lobbies. There are those that fail.
It's a BIG bet. Fail and you will NOT sell. "Ferget you, man!"
If I was going to lobby for mandatory whatever, I would say "What votes
!!!!!!!!!_use_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this thing?"..............table saws? umm......... .....2%
....Looooser!
Market forces apply. Get the price down.
Airbags? 80+% _use_ the thing it "helps". Winner! Bullshit _or_ not.
"Short people" it kills? 1%.......see stat on weener savers.
I think that they could do quite effectively by making a high quality saw that is worth the price, then pointing out that the saw could save money in the long run if health costs are considered.
I saw their site. I'm strongly considering getting one. It would be a move up from my Ryobi, but I'm getting to the point where the added size, accuracy, capabilities, and piece of mind are getting to be important.
Michael
Ed Pawlowski notes:
Yeah. Me, too, but their attempt at forcing it down people's throats really turned me off. When you discover the number/percentage of digit removal accidents on a table saw and compare such costs with the overall cost of the SawStop, you have to wonder a bit. Yes, it's a tragedy to the guy who loses a finger or 2. But why should it cost me, and 10,000,000 other table saw owners, $700 or so each to keep a dozen such people from losing a digit annually.
That forced marketing is probably impossible, anyway, but it would sure stir up immediate interest in the used table saw markets. Something like 20 years ago, Black & Decker estimated that there were at least 10,000,000 table saws in the U.S. which is where I got the above figure as well. At that time, the hobby was a minor one, relatively speaking. Today, whoooweee!
The biggest problem seems to actually be fear of loss, not actual loss, of a digit. I'd like to see some accurate, and certified, figures on table saw ownership versus amputation, or partial amputation, injuries, which seem to be all the SawStop is aimed at preventing. But I still wouldn't want legislation telling me that the next time I got a table saw, I'd have to double its price to pay for safety equipment I won't buy on my own.
Charlie Self "If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave it to." Dorothy Parker
This saw technology is being developed for the long term. Should this technology succeed, it will become a required feature on all saws of every application.
Examples of this type of marketing abound. Seat belts, airbags, anit-lock brakes, life jackets, emergency locator beacons, anti kickback, guards of every size and shape.
Trust me when I say, as soon as the technology makes it past the commercial world where OSHA and the insurance companies force it on all machines operated by employees, it won't be long before its on every saw.
Dave
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I can just see dropping a bandsaw blade below the table instantaneously.
You're writing of life and death or major injury situations there, applying to many thousands of deaths or injuries. That simply is not the case with amputation and partial amputation injuries.
When will it "make it past the commercial world" when it can be forced on every saw? It may be required on commercial saws, but damned few tablesaws sold are commercial use models, in comparison to the overall market.
Charlie Self "If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave it to." Dorothy Parker
But wouldn't most folks already own a suitable fence?
If you have to have it to be insured in the future, you can bet it'll be at a minimum license fee, like the air bags.
Huh? I don't personally know _anybody_ who has _used_ an airbag. If "80%" actually USED them then I would expect to know _somebody_ who had.
1% of what? It kills 1% of short people? 1% of airbags kill short people? Something else?
With the price of the SawStop Microsoft will probably three of four other releases out before anyone orders one.
-- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
If there's one thing _not_ to use as a bad example of regulation, it's the airbag.
For folks who don't have sense enough to use belts, they're lifesavers. I've noticed a big reduction in head injuries in my little county from deployed bags. It's always a relief to survey the scene and not see that impact star in the windshield.
I have cut seven fatals from seatbelts in twenty years, four of which also had airbags deploy, but when the engine is in the passenger compartment, or the door intrudes past the center console, I don't think anything will work. Of ejected, two of probably 20 survived.
Oh yeah, hundreds who wore the belts were collared and boarded as precaution only.
For some interesting reading, look at the Power Tool Institute (industry group) comment to the CPSC petition contained in pgs. 35-69 of this file:
-- Testing of a prototype Sawstop showed a very high rate of false trips (alot of detail given in the comment)
-- The UL standard for tablesaws (UL987) is under review for addition of a requirement for a mandatory riving knife
-- Estimated US tablesaw population is 6 million with sales of about 750k per year. They have some back of the envelope stats that claim on a per saw cut basis that injuries are rare. I would take that analysis with a big grain of salt.
Personally, I think the Sawstop concept is great, but would want to see some hard real-world data that shows it works. Even if it does, it shouldn't be a mandated feature.
Tim
Not really. The airbag is designed for them to be in position. Airbags will only be in the right place if the patient is held in place by the seat belts - they work _with_ the belts, not _instead of_. They are going to do their little "partially or fully ejected" trick without belts, no matter if the airbags go off or not. If they're not where the airbag expects them to be, _that_ is when you'll see more airbag-assisted injuries - if your face is in the big pillow when it goes bang, it's gonna hurt. Still softer than the glass, but...
I don't think I've been to a scene with deployed bags and windshield "football sign", but I'm not sure if that's specifically because of the bags, or because of the people driving cars with, vs. without.
You do not want to be ejected. You _especially_ do not want to be partially ejected (translation: head sticking out when the car rolls on top of it).
Yup. If the car is smacked hard enough to deploy the airbags, it's pretty much trashed anyway - better to let the car's safety systems work together to help you out. What this has to do with, what, Roundup on weeds, well, who knows. But, people who say airbags aren't a valuable life-saving development must have limited exposure to crashes and the results of them.
Dave Hinz (ff/emt)
And how many people die because they think the airbag is a substitute for a seat belt? And if it's such a good idea then why couldn't the airbag manufacturers sell it to the FAA or the various racing organizations? Has there been a reduction in highway fatalities since airbags were mandated?
I've also been to a number of accidents where airbags and seatbelts were used. Seatbelts save lives. Shoulder harnesses safe faces. Airbags go a bit further. I've been absolutely amazed at the level of damage to some vehicles with no serious injury to the occupants of the vehicle. That's not to say there wasn't the famous shoulder harness stripe down the chest, but certainly no head impact.
The only injury I've seen from airbags is a burn or abrasion. One fellow had the reverse image of his car logo impressed into his arm from the airbag cover. I'll take that level of injury any day.
Michael (also an emt)
I strongly suspect that the reason airbags started to be popular in the late
80's and early 90's is that the patent (probably mid 60's) ran out and so no one would have to pay royalties.
Perhaps my memory is failing me, but I seem to recall a car commercial (Mercedes, Volvo?) a while back that talked about having the patent on airbags but choosing not to enforce it.
todd
The reason airbags became popular is that in 1984 the NHTSA enacted a regulation requiring all new cars to have passive restraints, and in 1993 amended that regulation to require airbags. Had nothing to do with patent expiration and everything to do with being forced by the government to install them.
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