Consumer Product Safety Comm. to discuss proposed SawStop technology safety rule

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David wrote:

David,
I used to feel the way you do about mandated safety, seat belts in particular. But I have swung the other way due to the outrageous cost to all of us in terms of health care. I lost the dip joint in the ring finger of my left hand to a TS, but thanks to the amazing skill of somebody like you, it isn't too bad. I count myself lucky for having learned a valuable lesson at a relatively small cost.
-Jim
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Thanks for the valued insight Dr. David. You may have read my responses above where I try to explain that accidents do not happen when the operator follows proper procedure. If one is so inclined there are many documented cases of injuries related to TS operation to review. I cannot find a single case where the operator was anywhere near proper procedure. It defies logic to suggest that such an accident could take place. I would not want to go as far as to say it would be physically impossible, but rather, extremely unlikely.
Thanks for posting!

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jtpr wrote:

Although that may be a significant argument in your mind, it is not persuasive to me. Life *itself* causes outrageous health care costs. Seatbelts -- by themselves -- are *most* effective at speeds below 40 mph (we're talkin' current seatbelts, not racing harnesses). It has been demonstrated that, even with airbags, requiring helmets in a car can further increase the survivability of crashes above 40 mph, while decreasing brain injury. So, perhaps we need to mandate that cars be equipped with speed regulators, and that passengers and drivers be required to wear helmets. Let's also eliminate bicycles and motorbikes, backpacking and climbing, boating, swimming, monkeybars, etc, because these, and numerous other activities also add to the outrageous costs to all of us.
And by all means, lets eliminate new medical technologies and pharmaceutical R&D and the adversarial legal system, 'cause they definitely add to the outrageous costs to all of us in terms of health care.
Or maybe we could require everyone who purchases a WhirlySharp tool to show proof of health and disability insurance. That way, if there is an injury or disability, it is covered. We can also require registration of the tool with the Dept. of WhirlySharp Tools prior to the purchase, so that continuous monitoring of the insurance requirements are in place.
Or instead of the above, just keep encouraging people to read the manual, to fully understand and *use* the safety precautions for the WhirlySharp tool in question, and not to work in a manner that puts human flesh at risk of disassembly.
--
Dave
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further
<rest snipped>
And how do you respond to those times where serious accidents have occurred at much greater speeds and coming out of it almost completely unscathed? If you want me to, I can post a picture of an accident I was in at 60 MPH ramming into a concrete telephone pole that fell on the car and crushed it, but where I came out of it with a cut on my hand and virtually no other injury. Was I lucky? Damned right I was. But, I attribute 99% of that luck to the fact that I was wearing a standard seat belt ~ a seat belt that I wouldn't have been wearing without laws to mandate it.
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wrote:

It sounds like YOU really do need a nanny government. Some of us don't. My Jeep rollover was harmless too but I had my seatbelt fastened and it wasn't a law then. Some of us can be safe without a government mandate.
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Well, I guess that says it all. The GREAT INVULNERABLE human. Obviously, you've never had to go to a hospital for an injury, you've never visited a doctor because you've never been sick and you've never needed any type of assistance whatsoever even once in your life.
All of these things mandated and maintained by government and the bureaucracy that you hate so much has been completely useless to you.
My hat is off to you and your uniqueness. I'm truly envious of your exempt status in this universe. Too bad we're not all so lucky.
(You're so full of crap it's putrefying)
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Upscale wrote:

Taking the long road to the horizon, ain't ya, Butch. You were the one that stated you wouldn't wear a seatbelt unless it was mandated. gfretwell stated that he wore his because he knew it was good for him. It seems to me that the Gman was the one that KNEW he was vulnerable. It was YOU, because you lacked the commonsense to wear one without the government saying so, felt that you were INVULNERABLE.

Again, a great, giant leap off of nowhere. To oppose any government mandate does NOT equate to opposing ALL government mandates.

I left that in so that we could all enjoy your wit.
--
Dave
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wrote:

Nope, not in 60 years

Nothing YOU had to pay for.

Pretty much

I am not that unique

I am typing with all my fingers, how about you
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On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 15:58:34 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Exactly! If I want a device that allows me to operate a TS outside of procedure and still be safe, fine. But, if I prefer to follow procedure, use caution, respect the machine then I don't need this device and I don't want the Gov telling me that I do.
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Upscale wrote:

Ah, selective snipping. Even so, you must go back and read the my post for comprehension. I did not say that there are never good outcomes ABOVE 40 mph.

Excellent. Yes I would love to see that picture, please post it. I serve on the Governor's Injury Prevention Task-Force, and it may be worth sharing.

Well, thanks for making several folk's point. That users have the ability to virtually eliminate severe injury when using WhirlySharps, but they choose to ignore the safety gear and techniques available to them.
--
Dave
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on
I'll scan it and post it in ABPW. Hope it's useful to you.

to
Ok, you've completely lost me with that statement.
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wrote:

Can we crush this silly, unparallel comparison to seat belt in an auto.
For the 3rd or 4th time. When I drive out on the streets, I wear a SB *only* due to the risk posed by other drivers. Safe operation of a TS is wholly in the hands of the operator. Find another comparison as that one does not work.
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So, my running my car at 60 MPH into a concrete light post with no other drivers involved fails to qualify? And you consider your driving to be so perfect that it's impossible for you to make a mistake, any accident is *always* going to be caused by someone else?
Again, I'm jealous of your place in the world. I'm sure if you really thought about it, you'd realize that whatever reasons you've chosen to use a seat belt, this government mandated piece of equipment benefits you. While some may argue against how something came to be utilized in our society, you can't argue against the fact that in cases like we're discussing, it was done to increase our safety. Isn't that what's most important here, to prevent injury?
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wrote:

My point above is illustrative. I always wear a SB and always will whether I have to or not. Your accident (sorry to hear about that) is a rare event based on the circumstances you detail. there must have been some mitigating factor(s)....?

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On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 16:46:04 -0400, Joe Bemier

Bullshit. How bout when someone walks up behind you while you are making a cut and scares the crap out of you? I have had this happen. What if something big and heavy falls over somewhere in the shop and scares the crap out of you while you are making a cut? I have not had this happen during a cut, but I have certainly had things fall over and make me jump. What if something catches on fire while you are making a cut? At no time do you ever have complete control of your environment. You cannot have the factory guard in place for all cuts. Thus, you can be doing everything by the book and still get injured.
Ah, but I forget you're a perfect driver and perfect saw operator and will never make a mistake. You will never not notice a patch of black ice and wreck your car on your own. You will never get caught by sun glare and wreck your car on your own. You'll never be distracted and enter a turn too fast and wreck your car on your own. These are all things that happen to the other guy, not you.
Personally, I'd rather have the safety board decide whether this should be on all saws, not you. Considering I'm paying their salary and that's their job and all. Hopefully they are actually knowledgable people and not just political appointees.
-Leuf
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wrote:

You're getting carried away. I wear m a seatbelt and that is not the debate. My point is that the two are hardly comparable. Thats the point Leuf, that operation of a TS is not subject to other parties. Unless of course you cannot find a reasonable argument and so want to talk about black ice.

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On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 18:49:28 -0400, Joe Bemier

You said "I wear a SB *only* due to the risk posed by other drivers." and that is the same argument you make about the saw. You follow all the proper procedures all the time and if everyone did like you no one would ever be injured. That's a fairy tale.
As Nahm says it, learning how to use your power tools properly will greatly reduce the risk of personal injury. Note how he says greatly reduce, not eliminate? It's a question of numbers. The odds of something happening during any given cut is very very small. The number of cuts made is very very large.
If we can get another line of defense in there for a reasonable cost, it certainly makes sense to me to at least consider mandating it be on all saws. And it may be that the board sees it the way you do, that the current measures are sufficient to provide adequate safety and no mandate for the device is necessary.
Just out of curiousity, how would you feel about a requirement that you must pass a safety course covering proper procedures to buy a saw?
-Leuf
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wrote:

Well, over 30 years of nearly daily use and I have not as much as a nick -honest. I think that might be the issue. Maybe some of you guys are very intimidated by a TS and thus the feeling you need this device. And, that is why it should be a consumer option and not a gov mandate. For my part, I respect the machine and understand how to reduce my risk to only a freak accident...something in the statistical neighborhood of a clear sky lightning strike. You realize that cars could be safer than what we have today. We could mandate rollcages. What if a small subset of drivers started driving around w/o seatbelts and getting injured. Would you agree that we should put roll cages in all cars just because these ppl cannot follow proper procedure. I am willing to bet that the very same ppl who are at risk for injury on a TS are at risk for all kind of other injuries. Put a device on a TS and these ppl will cut themselves on a chainsaw. Put the device on the chainsaw and they will decide to have a BBQ in the garage with the door closed. You can look at the whole firearm picture for some very good likeness....i.e., guns don't kill ppl, ppl kill ppl.....or something like that. Same thing- you have thousands upon thousands of individuals (clearly the larger group by far) who operate a TS w/o injury.

Well, I am never in favor of more bureaucracy. And, as the doc pointed out many of the injuries he sees are experienced guys. That leads me to believe that it is not for lack of understanding that these accidents occur, but rather due to deviation from proper methods. If ppl were getting hurt while following proper procedure then I would probably feel different about this device.
Extra Note: In the past few days since this thread heated up I have taken note of my own actions while using the TS. I have found that my hands are never beyond the front fence rail while making cuts. I do this w/o thinking about it. My push sticks are 2-3 feet (long grain) and I never go for my cut piece or the scrap until the blade has stopped. I do these things automatically w/o thinking about them.

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And that's exactly the type of attitude that will bite you in the butt one day, that it's unlikely you might have an accident. Would you say there's quite a few experienced woodworkers on this newsgroup?. Sure most of them might still have all their fingers, but I wonder how many would admit to experiencing a kick back, either small or large? I admit to it and I'm certainly not accident prone.
A warped piece of wood, one that has an unseen split in it and there you go, a kick back whizzing by your head. That's an accident. How many people are using contactor saws with a motor hanging out the back of it driven by a pulley? A falling piece of wood into that spinning rubber pulley and a piece of wood gets whipped into a wall somewhere. How many might admit to that? Have you ever once removed your splitter and blade guard to cut a piece of wood? Automatically, you're open to some type of accident. It's fine that you're very careful, but it's just not humanely possible to take everything into account every time. To say otherwise is completely unrealistic. Considering the huge amount of tablesaws out there, even a small percentage of injuries adds up to a large amount when you tally them all. It's only common sense to minimize that amount.
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wrote:

Gee does the saw stop solve this problem too?
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