Consumer Product Safety Comm. to discuss proposed SawStop technology safety rule

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George, read my other response to you. We probably agree more than disagree. I made some comments about my point of view.
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the whole sawstop thing is a perfect example of how broken our system is. Rather than letting this (rather questionable in my opinion) product survive in a competetive marketplace, the sawstop folks have decided that they'll attempt to mandate the use of thier product.
Any time a vendor takes this path, I immediately have to seriously question the viability of their product. If it as as good as they say it is, there won't be any need for mandating its use (commercial shop or not). Do some simple math:
the cost of having an employee lose a finger (even if its still attached, but no longer works properly) is well over $10K - lost productivity, increased insurance premiums, time spent on paperwork, etc. If their product does what they say it does, as long as it costs less than $10K, and smart shop will be adopting it (assuming of course it really does have no effect on productivity). If it as good as they say, OSHA will eventually adopt its use, and insurance companies will offer discounts to those shops that use it. In other words, it'll pay for itself PDQ.
For the home/hobby shop, OSHA stays out anyway, so it doesn't matter what OSHA says. Of course, the saw manufacturers may decide to cover their butts by only selling saws with the sawstop.. BUt then, that is the goal of the sawstop folks - don't forget: THEY know more about the risks you take in your shop than you do. You really should let them decide whats safe for you.....
Bottom line: if the product adds significant safety without impacting productivity, it will succeed anyway. If it doesn't, it'll fail. The sawstop folks know this, and are simply trying to force it onto the marketplace to maximise thier profits. If they succeed, I see the market for used saw really explaning in the near future.
Just another case of some hoser deciding that he wants more of your money, weather you want to give it to him or not.....
--JD

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Not true. It is already being marketed and there is no law requiring this safety device yet. Had there not been any interest there would have been no product.
Already North American named TS manufacturers are starting to offer some of the safety features that SawStop already has.
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On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 15:50:51 GMT, "Leon"

You must be either a SawStop saw owner or an employee of their company in some fashion.
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None of the above. Just some one that is not swayed by my emotions.
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On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 21:57:20 GMT, "Leon"

I've read a lot of postings in years gone by about the Saw Stop. I've noted that a cabinet saw with that device is now available for sale. And I've read this month's issue of Design News (it arrived today) about Mr. Gass and his quest to have Saw Stop installed on every new saw sold.
I was right there with him. Little guy invents device, big manufacturers won't have anything to do with him, little guy starts own company and sells a million. Heck, I'd even read the reviews that said his saw was pretty good.
This was going to be a good old fashioned success story. Until now. Now Mr. Gass feels it's necessary to get the government to force everyone to use his device. I know, I know, they won't couch it in words exactly like that, they'll use words that say something like "a device to eliminate or reduce injury from contacting a rotating saw blade" or somesuch. And all the while essentialy mean to use Saw Stop.
That's where I draw the line. In my opinion he wants to use government intervention has a short cut to riches. And that's just wrong.
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Snip of views that you and I totally agree with.

Well, Mr. Gass did not just now decide to try and make this manditory on every saw. This was going on 3 or 4 years ago.

Well we partially agree here. I too do not want government to get involved in every thing, however you have to admit that in the real world this is not possible. The government is going to get involved, Period, I hate the thought of affirmative action, I hate that I have to buy insurance for me and the other guy to be able to drive and yet the guy that runs in to you has no insurance. My point of view is simple, of all the things that people have convinced the government to require and cram down my throat the SawStop is more palitable. I am not going to change my openion because of the way it is being or not being brought to market. Basically I am not going to cut my nose off to spite my face. I still make my judgement in the value of the product for what it is and not how it was brought to be.
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On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 23:40:15 GMT, "Leon"

Yeah, I know. I read the story in Design News today. Probably read some of the same stuff I'd read before but forgot. He definitely has an adversarial relationship with the tool makers.
BTW, aside from the tool industry being in opposition to this, Underwriters Laboratory (UL) is also in opposition to the CPSC filing. I'm taking that to mean that there's likely more to this than money or legal issues.
I'm thinking reliability and the possible issue of false triggering. Personally, I'd really hate to wreck a Forrest WW2 that way.

And now the matter of government regulation.
I don't know that we're going to completely agree on this. Here's where I am: Consider airbags in cars: I don't see the Saw Stop as a device of similar importance. There are far more cars than saws and the cost of injurys due to automobiles is surely far greater.
Where would you draw the line? Do you not already know that *all* the tools in your shop that have an edge can cut and injure? Are you careless with their use? I'll bet you and I already know the answers to those.
We're not talking cars, or building codes for bridges or space shuttles. We're talking table saws. Something that everyone knows can cut and maim if not outright kill. The rules of operation are clear. This is a cold piece of metal that has no feeling and simply cuts (or tries to) whatever contacts the blade.
So yes, this is where I draw the line. Enough is enough. The TS is NOT unreasonably dangerous. It does exactly what is required. It has sharp teeth, it cuts wood. It would cut my hand off too if I let it. You know that, I know that.
If it's o.k. to regulate a TS, then what? Your jointer? Planer? Bandsaw? What about the lathe? I've had chunks come flying off the chuck. Should there be a government rule for that?
I'm serious - where does it end?
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Yeah, LOL They are afraid of him, guaranteed.
A similar story, when I was 29 I worked for an Oldsmobile dealership in Houston. I was the service sales manager and during one of our weekly meetings with the owner he informed us on how a meeting went with all the area Old's dealers that took him to lunch and bought him drinks. Our franchise was only about 1 year old and the dealers wanted to tell our boss how " It worked". Our dealer decided to not have car salesmen and instead soaped the bottom sell price on the wind shield of each car. The customer paid that price, period. That price did not allow enough profit for a salesman and or his comission. The other dealers were loosing sales to us in a serious way and they did not like it. That workded very well for many years.

Sounds like it.

As would I however I enjoy or don't enjoy the value of actual experience and have a different view on that subject. I was not too big on the saw either until I learned from SawStop many years ago that the cartridge works when a dado blade is installed and when the saw is turned OFF. My accident involved both and was not during the normal operation of the saw. I certainly would have rather lost a blade than half of my thumb. Additionally I had the same view as most others here, I am too careful for this to happen to me. My friends and relatives could not believe that this happend to me, of all people. I had no idea what happeded until 1 year later when It almost happened again. Accidents happen whether you are prepaired or not. Thinking you are safe and thinking you are doing everything safely does not always work.

My line moves a lot. As I learn and become more experienced my line goes farther towards more safety. I already know that the tools in my shop can harm me with out being turned on. Its the ability to help prevent a more serious unexpected injury that concerns me more. Common injuries are easier to prevent. It's the injury that you have never heard of or dreamed about that is the one you cannot normally guard against.
I bet Steve Irwin never dreamed of what happened to him in the last couple of days. He seemed careless to many but obviousely he was no novice. Unfortunately he did not know all the possibilities and this possibility was the one that got him.

Should progress ever end??? What would be wrong with a safer jointer, or planer, or bandsaw? Most everything is expensive when first introduced but becomes cheaper to manufacture in quantity.
If government has to or does intervien for our safety, blame the tool manufacturers for maintaining status quo. The companies that we give our money to should have more interest in our safety than our government.

I hope safety advancements never end and I hope the manufacturers will learn to consider our safety before they are forced to do so by the government. The problem is that we have become lazy and too acceptable of the same ole same ole. Like it or not SawStop has brought a breath of fresh air to the tool industry.
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On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 01:32:19 GMT, "Leon"

Wait.. I assumed when power was off so was the detection. So if I accidently brush against the blade while I'm cleaning off the table it fires and I have to buy a new blade and replace the cartridge? What happens when I go to change blades? I assume there's an override, but what worries me is if it's easy to override and a false detection means I am out $150-200 that I'd just leave the sucker in the override position when it's not on, and then the one time I forget to switch it back that's when something happens.
-Leuf
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No, from what I uynderstand the system is activated and then you turn on the saw. Turning off the saw motor does not disable the system so that you are protected during spin down. After it stops it does not fire. I would imagine an accidental firing of the cartride in to a stopped blade may not do harm to either unless the cartridge is a one time fire piece regardless if it is damaged or not. This I do not know.
What

Again I doubt serious harm would be done to the blade. The real harm comes when the blade comes to a sudden stop from 100 MPH.
Check this out, it is interesting and informative. http://www.sawstop.com/documents/CabinetSawManualV2.3.pdf
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On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 18:44:36 GMT, "Leon"

Okay, that makes more sense. Reading through the manual there are 3 power switches. One that physically disconnects power for making adjustments where you're going to get your hands near the blade. A master power that turns on the detection system (5-10 seconds to do system check) and then the paddle that turns on the motor. If you turn the master power off while the blade is moving you don't have protection.
And yes, when the system fires you have to replace the cartridge at $70 a pop. $90 for the dado cartridge. Though in the manual it says if you send them the activated cartridge after an incident they'll replace it free, but not for a misfire.

If it were to fire with the blade stopped I'd imagine you'd at least risk breaking a tooth. But it looks like that shouldn't happen once you get used to the dual power switch.
It also appears they've added in some ways to try to detect wet wood vs skin, and it will just shut the motor off without firing if it detects that.
-Leuf
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<...portions snipped for brevity...>

Meat slicer at the deli?
--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
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wrote:

Euwwww.. That would require a human skin detector. Bad visual.
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Well, considering there's a store on the ground floor of my apartment building with an excellent deli section in it, I'd be a good 30 pounds lighter if the meat slicer stopped every time I went to buy. Sounds like a winner to me.
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I was wondering how long it would take for someone to catch that!
--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
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On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 23:40:15 GMT, "Leon"

Oh yeah, one other thing.
FWW did a report on tablesaws not long ago where the Saw Stop was favorable reviewed. Impressive.
I've also been to their website looking at their machine. Again, very nice. My personal preference in fences is a Biesemeyer, but I'll bet Delta isn't making a retrofit model for the Saw Stop. ;) hahaha
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Finding the keyboard operational George Max entered:

Now that is just uncalled for. Do you know the OP? Then why do you attempt to discredit his statements this way. You only make your postings meaningless because of your attitude. Bob
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Finding the keyboard operational George Max entered:

Yeah it's like the "KEYBOARD NOT CONNECTED, PRESS F1 FOR HELP". I had a friend of mine use that for a screen saver. His sense of humor was warped too. But back to the topic. I am totaly against government involvement where unnecessary. But we are going to get this one like it or not. Mr.Gass isn't going to be the one to push this through. It's the people who make it sound like they are on your side but aren't. Yes boys and girls, the insurance lobby. Insurance companies hate to pay claims. Hate may not be strong enough a word. So we will see this and soon. (my WAG) False triggers are going to be a problem. Not maybe, will. And it won't be long before someone hacks the controller. Then someone will come up with a new sensor that is less prone to false triggering or a blade that won't be destroyed. My position is that SawStop or someother braking device will be on all new table saws in the near future. The good thing is that it will save some people from injury, The really stupid will get hurt anyhow. Even if we write to all 100 senators and the 200+? congressmen, all we will get is noise. If I take my prognostication a wee bit further - CMS, bandsaws and scroll saws will be next. What has got me stumped is how they will stop us from getting hurt with a hammer. Bob
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On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 20:47:45 GMT, "The Other Funk"

Yes, especially since it's been shown to be possible.

You noted in one of my other messages that UL is also lining up against this? UL doesn't give a hoot whether or not the company building it makes any money with it, nor are they concerned with legal niceties of the operation of a companies business. They are involved with safety. Safety under not just the ordinary conditions, but also wildly abnormal situations. I think it's possible they see a flaw in the device. We'll see.

Saw Stop's own site says that. The device is designed for a hand pushing wood into the blade at some small rate. They say that a hand/body part moving faster will still sustain serious injury.

The article mentions exactly that. CMS, bandsaw and circular saw. No mention made of scroll saw.

Airbag
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