OT: Democracy in Action

[SconnieRoadie]

Keep your eyes on the recalls in Wisconsin Tuesday. Wisconsin has always been a progressive state, even under Republicans.

But the swing with the election of Scott Walker to the governorship was toward a whole new direction, one that slashes and burns social programs while shoveling money at business. My characterization is not out of line with the reality.

Whether or not this strategy would be ultimately "successful" - whatever that means to the authors of it - I hope we never have to find out.

I hope the recalls succeed and reason is restored. Because we need to drag this country back from corporatocracy. This is a key battle and people who believe in the greater good need to recognize the threat and make themselves heard.

D'ohBoy

"If you ain't bleeding, you ain't woodworkin'."

[Swingman]

Perfect manifestation of divide and conquer by the folks who play the game to game the folks.

Asshats one and all ... both sides should be ashamed.

[HeyBub]

Hmm. Wisconsin has certainly been in the news, though not for the reasons you mention. The big fight was over collective bargaining with public employee unions. How you get from that to dismantling social programs is a link I'd be very much interested in seeing.

I'd also like some kind of explanation about "shoveling money at business."

[Swingman]

Viewing the results, apparently folks aren't as stupid as msnbc makes them out to be, eh?

[Han]

Swingman wrote in news:902400790334717610.725946kac-nospam.com@216.196.97.131:

There is a law in Wisconsin that makes legislators immune from recall during their first year. Therefore, the decisive recalls will come later. I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in such a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and son-in-law are both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their remuneration (much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions) makes them feel lucky they have help nearby.

[busbus]

But making us poor slobs in the community where the teachers work pay more and more and more in taxes whenever our health care insurance costs go up and up and up and our gross pay stays the same and being told pensions are a thing of the past is FAIR somehow??

[Han]

busbus wrote in news:a4c2d470-9f4e-471b-8da5- [e-mail]:

"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to just throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that your pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes because the sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do this.

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has consistently allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers' (police/whatever) pension plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you teachers need to pay more, but what of the unfunded state obligations? It almost seems that the state stealing from the pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for themselves.

[HeyBub]

Nobody's labor contract got "undone." Previous labor contracts are still in force. The only change was that "new" contracts could not be based on collective bargaining.

The "average" pay for teachers in New Jersey is in excess of $63,000. Even in the Garden State, your daughter's family should be able to subsist on a piddly $130,000 per year.

Heck, they could even supplement this meager income by making Slurpees in the summer months.

[Swingman]

Police don't seem to be hurting:

"The median salary for the state?s 20,525 municipal officers was $90,672 last year, meaning half earned more and half earned less.

A total of 6,198 municipal officers made at least $100,000 last year. Ninety-nine of 466 towns that pay police have six-figure median salaries. Most are in North Jersey, primarily Bergen County"

That's twice the US median household income (read two wage earners) paid by the taxpayer.

"Any police officer that says they?re not making enough money needs to re-examine themselves," said Saddle Brook Township Police Chief Robert Kugler. In that Bergen County town, 30 of 31 officers made six figures last year, and the median salary was $121,177.

Police say their salaries reflect New Jersey?s high cost of living, years of experience on the job and union contracts allowing officers to quickly rise to the top of the pay scale. They also say they have recently made sacrifices in union negotiations and are being forced to pay more toward their health care."

Making that kind of money, seems like they could afford to pay more toward their health care and their pension plans?

Poor babies ... As a taxpayer who makes no where that, I simply can barely afford any kind of healthcare for my family.

[Leon]

If the contract seems too good to be true.... A contract with the state is in essence a contract with a pollination. Now days the young starting out better be responsible and depend on their own resources to fund their pensions.

[busbus]

Well, things like pensions "changed" at companies while I was working there and there was nothing I could do about it.

Health care insurance costs rose for me without notice and there was nothing I could do about it.

My job was outsourced to a low-cost provider and there was nothing I could do about.

Sorry, I just don't like hearing the whining.

[busbus]

I agree. Also, I work with a woman whose husband is a teacher in a fairly well-paid district here in PA. They are in their mid-30s (around 34-35). He has taught there for about ten years now. Whenever we talked about teacher's salaries, she exclaimed, "Well, Rick needs to work 17 years before he makes $75,000. 17 YEARS!! How long did it take you to make $75,000?!?!" I told her the truth: it took me over 30 years to get there.

Sorry, I understand that teachers are a bit behind in salary in their early years but, seriously, they don't put in near the amount of hours that other professions do. Also, they knew the pay scale whenever they went in. If they didn't, shame on them.

Beside, pension and health care insurance costs are breaking the backs of the public. We who are contributing to the GNP in this country are paying ever escalating costs for our own retirement and health care AND we are expected to pay for the people who work in public unions.

Think about it.

[busbus]

I just read this closer. To respond, I can unequivocably say that pensions have been changed AND taken away from workers in the private sector.

Whenever a person goes bankrupt, creditors will settle for pennies on a dollar to at least get something. All levels of government are just about bankrupt now and the "private sheeple" who are paying the bills are requesting their representatives to work with the "public sheeple" to renegotiate the contract. This sort of thing is not unheard of in the private sector.

I say "sheeple" because they exist in both the private and public sectors.

As far as honoring contracts are concerned, did you also agree that the rich CEOs and other high-ranking executives should have been paid the millions and millions of dollars that they were due in contracts after the meltdown in 2008? I will bet you that you were one of those people who complained that companies did that even though they were honoring the contracts.

[Max]

I just read this closer. To respond, I can unequivocably say that pensions have been changed AND taken away from workers in the private sector.

Whenever a person goes bankrupt, creditors will settle for pennies on a dollar to at least get something. All levels of government are just about bankrupt now and the "private sheeple" who are paying the bills are requesting their representatives to work with the "public sheeple" to renegotiate the contract. This sort of thing is not unheard of in the private sector.

I say "sheeple" because they exist in both the private and public sectors.

As far as honoring contracts are concerned, did you also agree that the rich CEOs and other high-ranking executives should have been paid the millions and millions of dollars that they were due in contracts after the meltdown in 2008? I will bet you that you were one of those people who complained that companies did that even though they were honoring the contracts.

I don't dispute any of what you've said. However, as a retired firefighter, I know of many who chose the profession solely because of the "security"; security that is now being surrendered because of mismanagement by the ......managers. The individuals in question usually had skills that would have paid them more *in the short run* but chose a public service job because of the proffered security. I'm in favor of informing future applicants that the so-called security no longer exists and they are well advised to take care of their own but a deal is a deal and the "sheeple public" elected the "managers" so the fault cannot be fairly placed entirely upon the public service workers. IMHO

Max

[Swingman]

Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify that apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay 1.5% of their salary for health insurance?

For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than $150/mo.

My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy with a huge deductible.

Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us. :(

IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union choke hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought and paid for politicians.

[Han]

Swingman wrote in news:COWdnf5s-sNvTd7TnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

Yes, the police here are complaining they earn less than in neighboring towns. Because of gov christie's budget cuts and their intransigence in negotiations, some had to be let go. I think 1 "new" position became available the coming fiscal year. They're good, though, and generally polite etc. They came extremely fast when I had fallen and broken my upper arm on July 4 a few years back.

[Han]

Leon wrote in news: [e-mail]:

?pollination?? Some would think that a fringe benefit like a pension from a (quasi)governmental organization should be trustworthy. That is a rude awakening around here.

[Han]

busbus wrote in news: [e-mail]:

It didn't change that much at my academic employer in New York City. But then, it always was a "defined contribution" benefit, rather than a "defined benefit" plan. It was up to me how and where to invest (within the limits of 403b5.

Health care costs kept and keep on rising for my coworkers and me (retired) too, including contributions from us, and copays.

I think that whining is in the eye of the beholder. If you had a contract, did you like it being canceled? My contract was year to year. Luckily, I worked for 34 years with (hardly) a hiatus, although 1 year early on I had to take a 30% pay cut. It's possible that I could have insisted on being paid, but then my performance review could have been bad at the end .

[Han]

busbus wrote in news: [e-mail]:

I did complain that the contracts were written in such a way that they did get those enormous bonuses. A contract is a contract, unless it is illegal, or coerced. Your call now ...

[Han]

"Max" wrote in news:4e43f49d$0$19705$c3e8da3$ [e-mail]:

Exactly, Max. As I said elsewhere, in maybe different words, academic institutions and others have become leery of "defined benefit" pensions, and have started to give "defined contribution" benefits. I had the latter, and can only blame myself for hanging on to underperforming investments, and crow about the well-performing ones.