OT: Democracy in Action

[Han]

"HeyBub" wrote in news:b4edncfreuLaXdvTnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

I tried Chrome several years ago and discarded it. Now I am a new convert. And still a liberal .

[J. Clarke]

Actually Chrome has higher compatibility with the current release of HTML5 than does Internet Explorer.

Microsoft hasn't bought it because Google isn't trying to sell it, and Microsoft is not big enough to buy Google.

Give it a shot, you'll be surprised at how good it is. I was. The fact is that the past few releases of IE have been pretty well hosed.

[Doug Miller]

Now *there's* a shock -- a MonkeySoft browser not fully complying with standards?? What is the world coming to, anyway?

[Bill]

Hard to believe (maybe)? Tenured faculty members having benefits (medical, retirement, others) aren't cheap, by comparison, and hiring one is a long term commitment. Who are you going to use to teach 20 sections of XXXX-101? It's not like most of the adjunct professors are unqualified--a great many of them are retired high school teachers and do an excellent job. People looking for full time teaching positions, and who have invested a great deal to get there, are "victims" of this system too.

Is is true that colleges are being run more and more like a business. Their survival partially depends on doing so, no?

Your reasoning makes sense, but an aspect of this that doesn't show is that the student population and backdrop is different. Ironically, there is less community at many community colleges I think. Traditional colleges offer their own culture (just like the military offers a culture). I think most (all?) traditional students would be well-served by living on campus if they can afford it--it's a good way for them to develop good habits. I think a mature person (not a duffus) who knows how to handle responsibility, is organized, and who knows what they want, is likely to be successful no matter where they go. The goal is not necessary to help students to pass classes as it is to convert students into people who are organized, can work well with others and with numbers, can communicate and can handle responsibility. We want graduates who are prepared to learn what they need to know and are well-equipped to adapt to change. I'm sure there are plenty here who have found their own routes to acquiring these skills. College offers a concrete plan and certification, as would an apprenticeship (where are those).

Don't laugh--classes are already being taught through the Internet. Time zone differences start to become significant issues!

Bill

[Bill]

That ship doesn't fly as well as it used to, though there are exceptions.

Even when I went (Holland, almost 50

[J. Clarke]

Interesting if true that undergraduate courses are now taught by adjunct faculty. Used to be taught by grad students under the supervision of a faculty member.

[Leon]

You obliviously have not tried it lately and if you think that Microsoft buys everything that is good, they would have replaced IE many many many years ago.

[Swingman]

Did you bother to read the referenced article that touches on that very subject?

Pretty important to further meaningful dialogue, as it was the basis for discussion.

[Bill]

Not all colleges have grad students in every department. Those that do obviously use them (first).

[Bill]

Well, honestly, I had not read it. It was not a really a matter of my being bothered. But I just went back and read it, some parts of it 2 or

3 times.

I think, based upon my experience, I can only add one thing (if that):

That you can pretty much count on academic institutions to follow a path which is consistent with their economic incentives. Contrary to the opinion of some, there are some pretty smart people at colleges and universities, even some you might call "angle shooters", who will work like lawyers to get as big of a piece of the pie as they can. The pie not only includes governmental support and grants, but also the potential students (which colleges have some incentive to make as large of a group as possible).

To me, it feels a bit analogous to government--very difficult to mismantle and redesign...

Some similar problems: Medical costs, Suit-happy legal system, union/employer rules, ...

A common thread seems to be the "angle shooters" who are willing to put their economic self-interest ahead of "ethics". Entities have learned to use "politics" in place of ethics. This seems to be related to MARKETING--its not WHO you are, it's WHO THEY THINK YOU ARE that counts, right? No Wonder ADVERTISING is so popular!!!

Example: If you run BP, just spend a few bucks and video some clean water for the silver screen...

Bill

Extra Remark: I suspect (fear) that as we are pushed more and more into a state of information overload, that marketing will only be more effective as people will feel pressured to rely on sound-bites.

Extra question: Are ethics and religion related? Want to tie in cable-tv, single-parent families, disrespect for nature and natural resources,... ?

I think if everyone felt a compulsion to "do the right thing" we wouldn't be having this discussion. Are people entitled to be lazy? I don't know. It seems unethical. Someone I know (that you don't) says: "Laziness needs no explanation" (I think he is an extremely hard worker!)

I said above I could "only add one thing". Sorry if I exaggerated a bit. If I had to reduce my entire post to one word, it would be "ETHICS".

.

[krw]

It's not new. I taught a senior level CS course and a graduate level MIS course 30 years ago. At one point I asked the dean if I taught all the required courses, if I got my masters (I only have a BS). He didn't like the question.

Sometimes there are people in industry who know more about a subject than you can find to teach.

Community colleges are often a good idea.

Internet classes are already happening. Something like a third of my son's classes are via the Internet. Why not from New Delhi? That's where all the instructors came from 40 years ago.

[Bill]

That may be very true, but that doesn't mean it's safe to assign them total responsibility for a class if they haven't taught before.

What is likely to happen is that the "industrial expert" is likely to assume too much.

That surely doesn't mean those industrial experts can't be put to good use. The students love such invited speakers like that.

B.

[krw]

And the choice is, don't teach the class?

That happens. In fact, I assumed that seniors in CS would have some idea how to program a computer and even know something about binary arithmetic. I'm not above learning, however.

What good is an "invited speaker", when the subject of the entire course is the adjunct's specialty? You assume education majors know something worth teaching.

[Bill]

It's the department chair's call. Offering a substitute class may be viewed as more appropriate than the possibility of having to deal with an angry mob of 20 students (and their parents) with legitimate complaints. Of course, the chair has to answer to the dean who has to answer to a vice-president. Offering an alternative class starts to look more and more attractive.

Here you are mixing apples and oranges. Invited speakers serve many useful purposes in teaching. I think education majors come in a wide variety. You assume they are all useless?

[Swingman]

Sounds like you got in on the beginning of the end ... ;0>

You know who taught the two undergraduate physics courses I took in college?

Clarence Zener, the Dean of the College of Science at that time at Texas A&M University ... he personally taught both those undergraduate courses, as did the department heads in Chemistry and Mathematics.

DAGS Dr Zener ...

Apparently students today have no chance of deriving the benefit from having a physicist of that eminence teach undergraduate classes. At one time it was an accepted practice.

Sorry, but IMO it's just more of the same with regard to the systematic slide into mediocrity that is creeping into all levels of education in this country.

[Han]

Swingman wrote in news:c9Sdnf848_-kutTTnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

I think that we are forgetting that scientific brilliance as recognized in various ways does not guarantee teaching excellence. Overbeek was great both as scientist and teacher (Physical Chemistry, Utrecht), van Deenen (Biochemistry, Utrecht) another. But the guy teaching Nuclear Physics was a joke. Although, the syllabus was fine, and he read a chapter every lecture, just about literally, advancing the overhead projector's endless copy of the syllabus.

[Swingman]

Sure there will some exceptions ... but just try to convince Plato and Xenophon of the benefits of rent-a-profs!

:)

[krw]

No, my father was a prof and I have three brothers who are a decade older than I. This is nothing new. Slave labor has always been cheap.

We had bigs in the Chemistry and Physics departments teach the 10x level courses, too. 500 students in a lecture hall at a time. What a disaster.

Know the name.

The 499 other seats canceled any possible benefit of the eminence of the prof. My second semester of Chemistry (organic) I chose a section with no lecture, rather four quiz sections with an instructor; a *far* better solution.

If it's a slide, nothing has changed for over 50 years.

[krw]

Again, you assume that only a "professional teacher" can teach. That is a

*very* bad assumption. One which is partly responsible for our piss-poor education system.

No, you're saying that only a "professional teacher" can teach, even a technical subject.

Perhaps, but *THAT* is the changed subject.

Yes! But you have to admit, they're particularly useless teaching college level Computer Science. Good grief!

[HeyBub]

Yes, but, they are, well, "professionals."

Years ago I did some research. I found that the following were ineligible to teach in the high schools of my state:

• All living Nobel Laureates (this was back when Richard P. Feynman was alive).

• All winners of the Fields Medal

• Almost all literary prize winners, including Pulitzer, Edgar, Booker, Caldecott, Newberry, etc.

• Virtually all members of the federal judiciary

• Virtually all members of the Congress and all living ex presidents

And on and on.

Simply because without the requisite "education" courses, it was presumed they didn't know how to teach.