OT: Democracy in Action

"HeyBub" wrote in news:KJudnbz5o4l0UN7TnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.com:

I hope my kids are getting closer to that average salary. They started 4 years ago with around 40K. Even combined, that isn't very much hereabouts.

Reply to
Han
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busbus wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@a10g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:

The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by high school teachers who make 40K/year.

As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a rather consuming job teaching math & physics in Paterson NJ and similar districts. Apart from the miserable shape those communities and kids are in, the hours of school and after school efforts plus the hours of grading and lesson planning would have exhausted me within a year. Glad it's not my job ...

Reply to
Han

I am not saying that teachers or firemen or policemen or whomever do not work hard. You want to know the truth? My son will be starting his sophomore year at Penn State to become a high-school math teacher. I know it is no bed of roses. But, at the same time, he is not looking for a free ride.

That said, you mention that your kids started out at $40/K each four years ago. Here is the thing: there are a number of people living in that community who are paying taxes and are paying A LOT more for health insurance and are paying into their own retirement accounts.

Like somebody mentioned before: nobody is taking anything away; they are changing it for the future. It needs to be done. Sorry.

Somebody else mentioned the "security" part of it. That is gone , too. Yes, it is a sad thing but there is no security in the private sector and, in a number of cases, the person doing the same job in the public sector gets paid less than the one in the public sector NOW (it was not like that before). It is upside down.

This slanted sort of thinking is exactly what brought Greece down and is bringing a number of other European countries to their collective knees. Take off the blinders and see. Both China and Iran are licking their chops waiting to become the kingpin in a post-America world. And that doesn't even count all the religious crap that is going on.

As long as we fight amongst ourselves over this piddly crap, the stronger the other side becomes.

Reply to
busbus

snipped-for-privacy@q15g2000yqk.googlegroups.com:

Well, why did you complain about them? Because they are "rich" and the people you hang around with are not?

I am not trying to be belligerent; I am just trying to make a point. You see, I believe it is this exact type of class warfare that cause a lot of the problems in the world today. For example, all that crap that is happening in England right now. I saw a British newscaster delivering the news from a store that was in the process of being overrun by looters. And the looters were having a good old time! He asked one woman if she knew what she was doing and she said that she did. he asked her why and she said something stupid like, "We're getting back all the taxes we paid." Another interview was conducted with three young girls (in their late teens or early 20s). It was morning, so the newscaster said, and the girls were gorked out of their sneakers on free booze that was handed out. They were asked if they were up all night and they said they were and ghat they drunk the free booze all night (that was stolen). Then they were asked why they did it and they each said separately that it was because of the rich.

This "discussion" is starting to go in the same vein. Both sides need to get together and UNDERSTAND the other side. Reasonableness needs to prevail. Anymore, people try to get 100% of the pie and won't give up until they do.

I understand that is is hard to get by on a smaller salary but if you can get (a) job security, (b) lower health insurance costs, and (c) a good pension, why do you need the same salary as a person who is working in the private sector who is paying more in health insurance costs and gets little to no pension AND has to pay taxes so the public workers can get more than they have themselves.

Reasonableness. I'm sorry that the pendulum has swung way in the opposite direction butt he fact of the matter is that is has. Adjust.

Reply to
busbus

Swingman, I can tell you this: the teachers in the school district I live in went out on strike last year for six weeks. The labor dispute was never settled. The teachers are looking to strike again this year. One thing the school board asked for was an increase in the healthcare insurance from 0.5% to 0.9% and the teachers were really up in arms about that. They were also asked to teach six out of nine periods instead of only five out of nine. I know some things like Calculus and Physics and English composition papers are not the easiest things to grade but it seems to me that t he teachers are being given ample time to get a lot of that work done during the school day. Sure, they need to bring work home. Many, many of us white collar workers come in early; stay late; and work at home on evenings, weekends, holidays, and vacations. That is EXPECTED of us. Why not the teachers, too?

Reply to
busbus

Swingman wrote in news:FrednaTAqfgXnNnTnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

Googling "nj police health insurance contribution" comes up with a lot, but I can't easily corroborate that figure. The new rules for public employees may be something like this : All employees must pay a portion of their premium, based on salary and using a sliding scale that starts at 3% of the premium for those making less than $25,000 a year and reaches 35% for those making $110,000 or more (the percentage changes for every $5,000 over $25,000).

That is unconscionably high, and I hope some of that is deductible on your taxes. Can't you get a better plan, maybe via AARP or AAA?

OTOH, my coworker, who was screwed out of a salary (too long a story) for something like a year, while her husband was also not being paid, was paying over $1000/month for COBRA coverage in New York.

At Weill Cornell health insurance is a great benefit. For myself and my spouse, when I worked full time, my contribution for medical, dental & vision was ~$212/month.

The issue is really what the cost should be, and (red flag waving) I believe that the leveling of the costs for everyone under Obamacare is going to be a plus. Remeber, my insurance is now paying (in New York) a surcharge over the hospital costs of 8.5% to cover uninsured people.

Reply to
Han

busbus wrote in news:a8552c7c-5604-4c2e-8a14- snipped-for-privacy@h9g2000vbr.googlegroups.com:

I have hardly ever complained about the salary I was getting. Considering what it takes around here to live, a real cut in disposable income for my kids here is a hardship. They would live, even if I didn't help, but they would definitely spend less. And the real issue is why healthcare costs are so crazy in the US, compared to elsewhere. Example:

I broke my leg while on vacation in Holland (Wed, 7/7/10, ~10:30 AM). An ambulance crew picked me up and brought me to the local ER, where they determined that both tibia and fibula were badly cracked just above my ankle to halfway up my lower leg. A trauma orthopedic surgeon said he needed to operate right away and put "plates" and screws in my leg. Operation was done and by 2:30 I was out of recovery in a semiprivate hospital room. On Friday afternoon I was released, and was told it was OK to travel by train to Paris on Saturday. Followup care here in Jersey had the orthopedist amazed at the techniques used by the Dutch surgeon. For the hospital stay including ambulance, OR, anesthesia and medications, the total bill was less than 10K. It's difficult to compute because of the changing exchange rates around that time. Luckily my insurance paid except for a $250 deductible. Of course, no one but me paid for my exchanging my tourist class seat for a first class one, so I could keep my leg elevated during the flight to Newark. I'd love to know what a similar operation and hospital stay would have cost hereabouts.

Reply to
Han

busbus wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@t9g2000vbs.googlegroups.com:

Teaching 6 periods rather than 5 is a 20% increase in teaching load, right? I'd be upset about that too, if my take home pay was cut on top of that. And as an "exempt" employee at a university, I know a little about staying late, and working weekends etc.

Reply to
Han

busbus wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@f20g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:

Some of that I can agree with. OTOH, employee-employer relations are much more combative than they need to be, hence the unneccesary strikes (teachers can't strike in NJ, I believe). The only thing they could do was not volunteer for after school work with the kids after years without contract.

I'm all for reorganizing some of the work rules. Especially the rule that says your pension is based on the average salary you made during your last (1,2,3?) years, includng overtime!! That's ridiculous.

Reply to
Han

Are you saying what would it have cost with or without health insurance? Before or after you have hit your limits for the year?

One thing that people are forgetting: no hospital in the US is allowed to turn away a patient just because they cannot pay. As a result, we who are actually paying the bill need to pay for those who are not.

This will open up a can of worms but if you insert the Federal Government into the mix, you will mess things up even more than they are. Just because the Federal Government would run a health care arm does not mean those people are any smarter or more efficient or more ethical or, in any way, better. Plus there are 350,000,000 or more in these United States. A lot of people bring up the fact that governments of other countries have universal healthcare insurance but trying to have one, central point of control of an industry and try to make it one-size-fit-all for the vast number of people involved simply will not work. (But this is the subject of another thread!)

As far as it goes, I have not seen my pay increase in about four years. In fact, two years ago, we were all forced to take one week a quarter off without pay. None of my expenses cared that I had less money. I survived. And even though we have not been forced to that extreme since (yet!), my pay is stagnant and ALL of my costs have increased. Also, back in 2003, I saw my pay get cut back around 20% but that was better than no job at all whenever I was about to get laid off. I put in for over 450 jobs in person, over the internet, thru the mail, anywhere I could. No bites. Luckily, this was tossed at my feet. 20% is a hell of a cut, no matter how much you are making. I made major changes in my life during the time I was looking feverishly for a job and thru the first 2-3 yer of that lower paying job. We didn't do anything we didn't have to do. We didn't eat out. We didn't go to the movies. We didn't go on vacation. We didn't do hardly anything. We focused all of our money toward our mortgage and our second mortgage (because we added onto the house) and the one car-- basically anything to get our family out of any sort of debt at all. During that time, my wife had to go to part-time, too, so it wasn't easy.

I guess I am saying that things happen and people can either roll up their sleeves and work harder or, in the worst case scenario (and I am not saying you or your kids do this) would be to stick your hand out.

Is not the hardship the same across the board? Is it hard to give up some things? Yes, it is very hard. Going backwards in any degree is hard. But you need to learn how to tough it out.

Reply to
busbus

I am glad we are having a dialogue on this. I agree with your last statement.

Reply to
busbus

Yeah Pollinations... LOL Thank you spell checker,,,,

30 years ago maybe but the government spends way more than it takes in and it stops some where.
Reply to
Leon

The main reason for our high healthcare costs is the need for malpractice insurance coverage for the medical community. Eliminate that from the equation and our costs would be significantly lower.

I guess the bottom feeding lawyers are the legal systems counterpart to the anointed ones desire to redistribute the wealth.

Reply to
Gordon Shumway

But teaching 5 out of 9 periods is only 55% of the time you are there. I don't see that as an increase, I see that as being more productive during the time that you are at work.

Sure you have to do more work as opposed to what you were told you would have do. Join the crowd. Economic times are tough. If every one does not pitch in an do more the cream is going to rise to the top and they are going to be the ones that keep their jobs. Those that complain and or do the least will be replaced, simple economics.

Reply to
Leon

Actually that is normal, do you have any idea how much the employer pays for an employees insurance?

I can guarantee you that you were only paying a small percentage of the total. When I was working for others I never had any deductions for my insurance however being a check signer I knew full well what health insurance was costing the company.

Think about how much that is going to go up when you start footing the whole bill, Fewer raises, smaller raises, higher taxes....

Reply to
Leon

I was educated by teachers that made far less and were far superior to most today. Our educational system throws more money at the problem than ever and yet the results are far worse. A higher salary is not going to get a better teacher. I guarantee you that if all teachers were given a 50% raise today that in 5 years the same teachers would still be teaching and the kids would not be learning any more than they are right now. If you want the kids to learn more the teachers will have to be held to a higher standard, be re-certified periodically, and paid for their performance.

Reply to
Leon

Hans,

The 20% increase in workload is not the point. I guess I was focusing on all the down time they have now. Until this came up in the negotiations and it was made public, I never in a million years would have thought that they only worked a little over 50% of the school day. They say they need that time to grade papers and exams and homework and such. I understand. Really. I do. But I don't know of any other profession who is given that amount of "free time" at work.

And I sort of hate to say it but I know a number of people who work at colleges. Two of them were fellow employees back in the day when I was laid off--they were laid off, too, during the same downturn and we were all int he same IT group. They say it is like they died and went to heaven working at a college. The one guy said the most stress he has is whenever payroll runs an he is in charge of payroll. He has had exactly zero production problems in almost eight years in payroll. The most stress he has is whenever he has keep an eye on the jobs over weekends. if that is the limit to his stress, please, give it to me.

I will trade you a year here, Han, for a year in your university. I don't think you have been called while you were on the beach and had to cut it short to go back and log into work for hours very often. or called at all hours of the night because the system crashed, worked

3-4 hours, then had to go to work the next day at normal time (probably due to the crash). I don't think I worked an eight hour day in many years, let alone a 40-hour week!
Reply to
busbus

That truly is a big expense however if you take the insurance out of the equation and every one would benefit. Think about a doctors office that has a department/staff for simply collecting payment from the insurance company. Then look at the big discounts that the insurance company gets.

Reply to
Leon

busbus wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@dc3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:

Thanks!! I agree, we need to talk. We don't want more occurrences like the GM and Chrysler bankruptcies that give away pension obligations to the "state" or just say screw you to the retired workers. Some givebacks need to happen, but we were focusing here on teachers. And then the BIG question is, would you want your kids (and your neighbors' kids too) to have a good education, or should the kids be warehoused until 16 or 18 and then loosed upon the drugdens that would undoubtedly spring up in your town.

Reply to
Han

Gordon Shumway wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

The lawyers are certainly a factor, but there are others too. First of all, there is the feeling that the newest, most expensive treatment is the best. Uh, uh, not necessarily. Some of those are mere fancy ways to package an old treatment in a new patent protected envelop. Then there is the fighting between you, the doctor's office, and the insurance company as to what is allowed, covered, proper, whatever, with the myriad codes for medications and treatment. The Dutch system is simplified. The hospital sent me a 1 page bill, half of which was addresses (hospital, mine) and a few lines that pointed to a single code that covered all. Doctor was very satisfied with the system. He wanted to practice medicine and heal people (had a kidney transplant and wanted to pay back, also). Didn't want to fight about reimbursements. He basically just had a salary, I believe. I also got an extra page with an explanation of the system in (sort of) English. I was indeed glad I still spoke and understood Dutch when this all happened. Good thing it didn't happen in Italy ...

Reply to
Han

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