Leon wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:
Indeed. A system where this was the price, and no bargaining is better. Less staff to pay to do the arguing. Oops, more unemployed secretaries ...
Leon wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:
The teachers do not always have to be there first or last period. And teaching a class is really more work than supervising cafeteria or some such. Basically, if the school can make teachers 20% more productive, they need to pay 20% fewer teachers.
Yes, times are tough, for everyone. That's when you want teaching to be done well, and you should be willing to pay for that.
Leon wrote in news:- snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:
I was involved in writing grants, and know about the budgets. On top pof the salaries/wages there was always 30% extra for benefits. Plus on top of the socalled "direct costs" the universities had negotiated with the NIH (National Institutes of Health) an additional percentage for overhead (building costs, maintenance costs, water, what have you). That percentage? In the order of 70%. In other words, you (via the NIH) paid me 100K in salary, 30K in benefits, 30K in equipment and chemicals and other materials for my science, plus 70% of 160K=112K for the university. My salary was in that order, which was quite normal for someone with my qualifications.
Yes, I know. Officially, that was because the university was competing with other employers to get the most qualified people. A good benefit package was a big plus.
I don't know. Everyone (in my reddish opinion) should pay similarly for health care insurance. No ducking because you think you are invincible and won't get sick, because if you do, you'll be unable to pay back what you evaded before. And, better to have a colonoscopy now than colon cancer later.
Han,
I agree that kids need to have a good education but simply paying money does not guarantee that. We pay a hell of a lot per student in this country and we are getting dumber and dumber. Do you really believe that it will turn the corner if you pay teachers more money? Hire more teachers? Provide more "free" meals in school? Give each kid a Mac?
Nope. It all starts in the home and whether or not a kid's parents value education and make darn sure that their kids do the needful. You have parents at both ends of the spectrum: those who think their kids need to be #1 in everything and can never have a bad grade and those who can give a #%@^. And I do not know which group has more members in it. Unless and until those things change, we will sink lower and lower.
Additionally, I graduated from high school around the time that Jimmy Carter created the Department of Education. Seems to me the USA was on top of the world at that time and, ever since, we have plummeted but the costs have risen tremendously. I see a lot of problems there.
But let's get back to the subject: why shouldn't teachers have to endure everything the rest of us do? We all are forced to work more. We are all forced to pay more. And, as a result, our hourly take home pay has been reduced incredibly.
Am I biased? Maybe I am but I am sick of having to pay for more and more people out of my salary.
Leon wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:
Agree. Teachers should be more motivated (especially the ones doing it already for a long time) and kids should be more willing to learn. Ask the Brits were the parents were ...
The work rules now stink. Get tenure, and you're practically set for life. OTOH, capricious or malicious firing is very difficult now. It goes both ways, but I agree, it should be easier to "grade" teachers and remunerate accordingly. Of course, if you get dealt a bunch of really unruly and stupid kids one year, life sucks.
busbus wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@y24g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
I have no idea what kind of work you do. Please tell me a little, or a lot .
Been there, done that. I never had a teaching job (students that is, perhaps unfortunately). I had to formulate a hypothesis, design experiments, run the experiments, calculate and interpret the data, and write the scientific papers. And in order to get the grant money, I had to write the grants. No grants, no job. Luckily, I only had 1 or 2 times that there wasn't enough money for my salary. And then there were the scientific conferences were you had to present the data, be nice to the people who might judge you and so on, and still keep your integrity. Most years I wasn't home to take my wife out for our anniversary because of that. But I liked the work, despite the frustrations and hard work, and hope I contributed. I'm still assisting my old colleagues with this and that from home, but no more filling out those effing forms and doing those proficiency and compliance tests. My old boss is still doing this. I owe much to him and his liking of my work. I also had a technician to help me much of the time, and they all were very competent and nice, and got paid less, some much less, others not so much less (seniority pays).
But I do know I lived in a protected world, generally. Of course, if my boss and I had failed at some point to generate enough grant money, the university would nicely say thanks to me, and send me on my way. Happened many times, both with competent and with not too competent people. The luck of the dr.aw. If your grant was judged by someone who didn't like your ideas, you were done until you could rewrite the grant, perhaps getting it to someone who liked it better. Generally in the times I was submitting, there was 1 main reviewer of your grant, 2 who would look at it, and then a bunch who would read the summary and judge what the others were saying.
As for the wimps that are supposed to support your work in the university's offices, many are nice people who had reached their Peter principle level. Others are worse, and still others do a good job. One thing I couldn't stand was the increasingly complex forms and permissions, certifications and compliance testing. Seemed like every 3 months the forms needed to be changed and the required language in the forms was redone. I still get the emails announcing the improved redone forms etc. Now I can plonk them, and occasionally I write back telling them why I quit.
So not putting in a full day is OK??? Wish I could come in late and leave early and have the summer off. How about making all teachers more productive by putting in a full day and letting all of them keep their jobs.
We are paying for that! We are not gettin g what we are paying for.
busbus wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@ea4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:
I wish I had the solution. Paying a little more should help attract better teachers (I think). Elevating the stature of the teachers to give them more selfesteem would help too. And parents should help the teachers. What? My wife just tells me that the CDC has determined that
60% of American adults grew up with a troubled or abusive family member (self reported). Maybe that explains something. I wish I knew how to educate teachers so they can motivate their kids better. I know that's what ny daughter and SIL are trying to do, and especially my SIL has great rapport (I think) with the kids in Paterson. I wish I could properly retell some of his jokes and stories with which he keeps them interested.Amen, brother. Much of the current malaise in education comes from those things.
I grew up in Holland, and went to university there for my master's. In the 50s and 60s, it was like a huge merit badge for the researcher who had studied/worked a year in the US. Big plus for advancement back home. And it still is for many, but now more orientals than Europeans. Work ethic is still a problem for many in the US. By far not all, because still very much of the best science is done in the US. But there is a greater proportion of foreigners who happily do grunt work to learn the ropes.
Then let's get those critters in Congress to give up some perks, and do more (I mean real legislative work). This pandering to the left and right fringes really gets me.
See above. I really believe that some people need to be paid appropriately. Teachers. Some cops, hospital workers, haven't thought of making a list of good people .
Also, I told you I retired in large part because I was fed up with compliance forms etc. We should simplify that to an absolute minimum, and tell everyone to take an oath to do the right thing(s). And if they didn't, such as doing ethically wrong things, falsefying data, abusing subjects, whatever, then they should really be punished, not just given a slap on the wrist, as is happening now.
Leon wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:
When I see my daughter and SIL come home from a day's teaaching, I can clearly see they put in a whole day's work. Maybe there are those who just pretend to work, but I believe most are doing right.
Yes, they may have the summer off. They don't get paid then, or at least thay have the choice to get paid full pay during school, and nothing during the summer, or to have it spread out. My SIL is a bridge fanatic, so he is earning extra money in the summer playing professional bridge. No idea how that works exactly, but hopefully he brings in enough so I don't really have to supplement them.
In some cases, indeed you're not getting what you pay for. That's not acceptable, and work rules need to change. In other cases, teachers are NOT rewarded enough for their work.
I often think and believe that we are in this lousy situation because
95% of us live beyond our means. Yes I can afford that house if I get a 40 year mortgage with interest only/no principal on the front 10 years but should I? If only the schools would teach and require students to learn the true cost of borrowing money, how to make good financial decisions, and learn that borrowing money should be done as a last resort. This is absolutely as important as any subject being taught in school. With few exceptions if you have to borrow money to buy something you probably need to reevaluate you life style. If the wife works to help make ends meet you need to reevaluate your life style. IMHO one parent needs to stay home, plain and simple. When both parents are working, WHO is watching the kids????? The teachers would have a lot more success in teaching if a parent was at home when the kids got home.
I believe "some" are being paid what they are worth oters are being baby sitters.
I think a good teacher would know that being paid as he or she has earned the money takes more responsibility and thinking ahead than having the school holding on to your money so that you don't spend it all and have nothing over the summer. The teachers that cannot budget themselves to not spend every dime they make while working during the school year are not the ones I want teaching my child. I would rather have a teacher that teaches common sense than one that is highly educated but can't make it on the salary that he or she has agreed to. If you cannot make it on your own what good is that education?
My SIL is a bridge fanatic,
???
A majority of teachers ARE rewarded enough for their work and for many more than enough. A select few are NOT rewarded enough. IMHO. ;~)
I work for a for-profit company. Always have. Granted, I never had to write a grant paper but isn't that asking people for money??
I work in IT. I still sorta-kinda work on a mainframe and have been in IT since 1978. This is an incredibly rough area to work because there are always more than enough young bucks coming along who "know" the latest and greatest everything. Many of them couldn't code themselves around the corner but since they have written source code in a particular language of the month, they get the job and the dinosaurs are left out.
I have been in programming, operations, a DBA, EDI, project management, you name it. I have had to re-educate myself at least a dozen times over the years and all on my dime. I had to re-invent myself twice as many times. The latest thing I have been cramming for is Oracle. Personally, I the database sucks and the software suite is even worse, but they wined and dined the people who write the checks here, so it is what it is.
I have been forced to teach people my job on more than one occasion so I could be shown the door. This is a fairly recent phenomenon with offshore outsourcing. Let me tell you, the seething anger the first time you talk to a smiling idiot who is harvesting all the knowledge you have so he can have a job and feed his family while you have nothing but uncertainty in front of you.
I am not complaining (much) because this is what happens in the field I chose. I know it and I have grown to accept it. The fact of the matter is that I will do whatever it takes NOT to take a handout from anybody. I have never bitched and complained about anybody making more money than me. And the only times I have ever whined some is whenever I had to make a brain dump,er, i mean, knowledge transfer to somebody else who isn't nearly as qualified as I was but is willing to work for a lot less than I do.
Teachers have been insulated from this real world stuff for the most part. I am not saying that teaching is not hard work. To be good at anything takes hard work and dedication. But throwing money at everything solves nothing.
Can't replace them; tenure.
They don't *have* to. The private sector doesn't have the silly concept of "tenure". If you don't perform, you're out!
They *do* get paid, whether they get paid over nine months or twelve, they get paid a salary. They can (and often do) work a second job. In some states they're also eligible for unemployment.
You?
Bring on the pay-for-performance, competition between schools, and dump tenure. You can't just pay more, though.
" snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
There are arguments in favor of tenure, but it should also be performance dependent, IMO.
As Leon pointed out, there is something to be said for letting them budget themselves, so the summer without income can be lived through, so to speak. Also, letting them pay you in 12 monthly portions gives them an interest-free loan, something I am against on principle. OTOH, i can see the ease of budgeting with the 12 monthly payments.
Obviously I don't have to, but seeing them struggle is no fun either. Besides the granddaughters deserve to be helped, they're so good people.
I always remember the Latin teacher fulminating in our high school class as the stupedest bunch he'd ever had. That's what he said and I think he meant it. Some kids adored him, I hated him. But the point is that some years a teacher may be dealt a bunch of "stupid" kids. Come evaluation time, does that mean he should be demoted because that bunch of kids underperformed? Maybe competition between schools in academic subjects could be more emphasized. Although, depending on what the parents do with the info, it is sufficiently known which schools do better. People will go live in those districts.
" snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
That was the point. Many think that tenure should be modified to make it easier to get rid of underperforming teachers.
busbus wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@y4g2000vbx.googlegroups.com:
I have no experiences in the areas personally. SIL was very high up in Lehman email worldwide. High salary etc, etc, but it burned him up. They bought another company and SIL was told that he could go, but it would be nice if he could transition the guy for a month or so. He also got a very nice settlement. Sold his Lehman bonuses in time. As a high school teacher earning a small fraction he is now immensely satisfied and proud of his performance and of the kids he helps go to college instead of into the street. Son is in sys admin or so now. I have no real idea of what he does.
Databases. Weill Cornell switched their ancient systems for payroll, purchasing etc. to an SAP web-based system. I had heard of SAP as a highfaluting (sp) company, like Oracle (perhaps). After having had to struggle with the anticustomer aspects of that system, I lost even more respect for at least the Cornell and SAP IT people. I have never really done any programming myself other than playing a bit with Applesoft ... But I can figure out ipconfig .
Leon wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:
Rant well-taken. My mother was always home, and so was my wife's, but her mother is another story. (See, it doesn't always work the way it should). For us, we both had to bring in money if we wanted to live. When the kids came, my wife went into daycare (times were easier on the regulations way back then, but the pay was lower too). At first, we had had a babysitter, but after the third time that she said, by the way, next Monday you have to find someone else because I quit, my wife started to take in kids. Then we moved to New York, and we got a babysitter. Wife went to work early, I dropped the kids off later, and my wife picked them up around 4. Made for less family time, but it worked well. Both my kids became good people. So, that situation also can work. Now, both my daughter and SIL have to work, and my wife wlks over in the morning to help the granddaughters off to school, and is back there when they come home. We think they'll be big enough to be a few hours after school by themselves, and if not, the other grandparents live arounf the corner and can do something too.
NO good ones, at least for primary and secondary grades. College, *maybe*.
That's a personal thing. The point is, they're paid a salary for work done. If you want to call their salary $50K (or whatever)/9 or $50K/12 is irrelevant.
Aren't they making $80K? Let them live!
Yes. ...if you call not making a "bonus" a demotion. If I'm working for a stupid boss or get stupid requirements, you bet it affects my pay.
So I'll mark you down as being in favor of a permanent underclass.
There shouldn't *BE* tenure. There is *no* justification for it in the public school system.
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