Problem with a sow that big is they will run you down if they want. Mom once kicked a big sow and it charged here. Grandma had to come and run it off. Since the sow grew from a piglet under the slop bucket from Grandma.
So don't wish for the biggest.
Mart> >
Do follow along. My point is that primitive societies tend to be more monolithic than more technologically advanced ones. This makes them more vulnerable to sudden collapse from a single or cluster of just a few factors, internal or external.
Very good. Now, see if you can figure out what types of societies are best equipped to make major adjustments to drastically changed circumstances.
And #3, resistance to, or inability to, make the necessary adaptations, often led by those who are profiteering off the collapse or the conditions leading to it. Sound familiar?
Yep.
Jeff
================================= In academic terms this is called an error of composition. Society is not a monolith, and is becoming less so all the time.
Some segments of society and areas of the country may well be able to "cope," but these will *NOT* be the same for all problems. It is well to remember in this context "cope" does not mean a continuation of the current soccer-mom "high conspicuous consumption / air conditioned" life-style to which they are accustomed, but rather survival as in "staying alive."
Historically, there were two successive and compounding errors that produced national disasters on this scale.
#1 the failure to accurately and timely identify the problem(s); and #2 was the incorrect identification of the causes (there may well be several).
Minority groups have always been popular scape goats, but ignoring the moral factors, punitive actions / pogroms have never cured anything, and have generally made the problems worse by diverting time/effort/attention away from the real problems/causes.
Unka George (George McDuffee)
...and at the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased, and the epitaph drear: ?A Fool lies here, who tried to hustle the East.?
Rudyard Kipling The Naulahka, ch. 5, heading (1892).
On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 17:52:56 -0700, Robert Sturgeon wrote:
======================== This was addressed at some length in my dissertation in Appendix A -- THE LINEAR AND ACCRETION MODELS OF ECONOMIC EVOLUTION
I attach the section on empire below as the most applicable, however W. W. Rostow's observations/comments about "Newtonian Science" in Stage VI --Renaissance also directly apply.
Note the [short] discussion where technical methodology is regarded as magic [symbolic manipulation?] and the bad effects this produced.
If you want to see the entire thing, or scan excerpts goto
references cited are in the bibliography
Enjoy
Stage IV -- Empires There is no sharp dividing line between a large city state and an empire, however it can be posited that when a city state begins to impose its rule on other linguistic and ethnic groups, especially if it imposes taxes for this "service," it has become an empire. This stage tends to produce large entities such as the Akkadian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Roman and Chinese, possibly because of the existence of well-trained and efficient specialists in governance / administration and military science. It appears that the policy makers of a stage 4 society tended to engage in and promote activities which cause their society to become too centralized, too specialized and too highly concentrated to be sustainable. Generally considerable technical progress is made in the pragmatic sense. That is that while certain procedures were known to produce certain effects, these are regarded more as magic spells or procedures than as a cause-effect relationship which can be systematized or integrated. Examples of this are the conversion of iron into steel and the tempering of the steel to provide sharp, durable weapons. A major contributing factor to the decline and destruction of a specific empire may have been the tendency to regard any technical knowledge as a family or guild "trade secret" which was to be protected to maximize profit. Thus while a family or guild knowledge of pragmatic procedures may allow the production of complex and sophisticated products, it also tended to restrict the diffusion of such procedures and products into other areas and thus limit the rate of change and improvement. It is unfortunate that in many cases moral and ethical considerations have been introduced into this discussion as these tend to produce considerably more heat than light. (For example Rousseau 1712-1778 and Gibbons 1737-1794 ) What seems to be the general case is that all cultures are subject to random stresses. These stresses can be an invasion, an internal revolution, a famine, a plague, a new social theory, a new religion, etc. Cumulative environmental effects also appear to be important. For example, some writers have posited that a major contributor to the decline in some stage III societies was the depletion of available natural resources such as arable land for food and timber for building ships and fortifications. The less developed transportation systems and technologies would have caused societies in this stage to be more vulnerable than would societies in the later stages. There appears to have been little realization of the importance of using sustainable agricultural techniques, reforestation and the productivity of and thus the need for the protection of wetlands. Indeed, some of the major "public works" of antiquity and the medieval period was specifically the draining of swamps and marshes. Long term climatic changes could also have a similar decisive effect.[Wright, K.] Additionally, geographic changes such as the shifting of the course of a river or the silting of a harbor are also known to have caused the abrupt economic decline if not collapse of ancient city-states. It also seems apparent that the more perfectly an organism, and by extension a society or culture, is adapted to one set of conditions the less well it will be adapted to a new or changed set of circumstances, and it is observed that the older an organization the less "flexible" it is. A further consideration is that most societies in stage III historically tend to engage in behaviors which cause extensive amounts of animosity and resentment. These animosities include but are not limited to envy of their flaunted wealth, hatred of their affectation of political and intellectual superiority or simply a desire for revenge for military defeat. While the historical record is not completely clear on this point, it appears that most stage IV societies succumb, not to a single factor but rather a combination of simultaneous factors. That is to say that while an empire may have successfully coped with famines, plagues, invasions and internal revolutions in the past, they are unable to cope with all of these at the same time. This is especially true if their nominal allies and vassals have been biding their time for the proper moment to obtain revenge. Each of the characteristics that helped create an empire then becomes a characteristic that assists in its downfall. The concentration of governance and military science into the hands of a few, albeit highly talented, specialists means that if these few people can be isolated or incapacitated then the entire society is paralyzed. The specialization by large numbers of the population in specific trades means that they are extremely vulnerable if the demand for their specific knowledge/skill no longer exists as they no longer have the means or knowledge to feed themselves and their families in the sense of subsistence agriculture or hunting. Economic devastation of large numbers of people, what ever the cause, generally results in revolution. Responsible or not, the existing social structure and leaders are held answerable for the disaster. The concentration of people into large cities, while promoting trade and generally improving the perceived quality of life means that to control the city, all that must be done is to control the food (or water) supply and as there is no need to breach the fortifications, advanced technologies such as siege engines and catapults are not required for their capture. This means that a stage IV society or economy is vulnerable to organized and warlike peoples such as the Huns, Goths and Mongols even though they may lack "technology" or "culture." The separation between the "thinking" and "doing" classes tended to grow more pronounced over time. In most empires slave holding tended to become more pronounced, thus further debasing the status of labor, gainful employment and useful physical (other than military and sports) activity. Another factor may also be that the specialization of occupations has resulted in the development of a large mass of people with no more military capability or "will to resist" than a flock of sheep. Slaves, almost by definition, are forbidden to own arms or even learn the "arts of war ," thus making this segment of the population useless in the military sense. This means that as soon as the "professional" military segment of the culture is no longer available, for what ever reason, the culture is instantly vulnerable to even small para-military groups, even if these are not particularly well armed, trained, or led.
Unka George (George McDuffee)
...and at the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased, and the epitaph drear: ?A Fool lies here, who tried to hustle the East.?
Rudyard Kipling The Naulahka, ch. 5, heading (1892).
[snip]
How did your dissertation advisor feel about such obvious proofing errors? What was your dissertation for, and when and where was it accepted? Published? Just curious.
Jeff
You can learn a lot about someone by handing them a simple tool like a ratcheting socket wrench, especially to assemble something. The inexperienced try to tighten the still loose bolt holding the end of the ratchet handle and of course have it always falling off the nut... the experienced finger tighten, palm the ratchet mechanism, and only shift down to the end of the handle for the last little bit. Of course we haven't thought about that since we were 8 or so... which is why it's so shocking to see how a newbie treats the tool!
You mean that place is still in business?
I knew it as "The Smithville Inn", home of the chicken dinner, served family style.
Amish country is less than 10 miles away, so you can guess what the quality and taste of the food is/was.
Haven't been in the place since 1955.
Lew
Workshop? I already have three, and it's taking over the house, too. ;-)
Sure, I've had to make some adjustments now that I'm disabled, but i still spend what time I can in the shops. Some modifications help, like the foot switches on the drill press, and some other tools. Since I can no longer do the micro electronics I did for a living I am concentrating un finishing my main shop, and my non profit efforts to collect and refurbish computers for other disabled Veterans in my area. A basic computer system is given free to Veterans in need, and the only cost incurred is if they want something we have to purchase wholesale. The work is done by me, and a couple part time volunteers. I also have a lot of older PC parts, from the original PC on up. If anyone needs older parts, let me know. Most of the stuff can be had for the cost of shipping, and a little, for what i paid for it, plus shipping. I have piles of good XT, 286, 386, 486 and early Pentium motherboards that are not usable for the computer project, but I don't want to toss them. Plenty of video cards, I/O cards and other odds and ends, including early SIMM and DIMM memory are floating around on the different motherboards. XT and AT powers supplies, if you need them, along with mini tower type supplies. I will use some of it for my projects, but I can't use it all.
Not very common in Florida, unless you build it above ground, then bring in lots of truckloads of dirt to make it look like its sitting on a small hill.
When I bought this house eight years ago, I couldn't even find a realtor who even knew what a workshop was. One listing claimed to have a workshop, so I got directions and went to see it. The "Workshop" was two feet of 1" * 12" particle board over the dryer in the laundry room. I went back to the realtor's office and read him the riot act in front of everyone there, including other people looking for homes. I asked him if he had been married so long that he had forgot what it was like to have the space to do what he wanted, when he wanted. Finally, he asked, "Just what the hell are you looking for?" I smiled and told him that I wanted a house suitable for a single many with hobbies. A 150 square foot house, and a 3000 square foot shop. he told me that i would NEVER find it in Florida, because no one wanted a workshop. He was wrong. I found a home with a 30' * 40" garage, a 18' * 28' storage building, a 12' *
12' "Workshop", a 12' * 12' laundry building, a 12' * 24" one bedroom cottage, and a three bedroom home with a large family room and a small library.All for under 40K, and it should be paid off in a few more years. ;-)
A friend of mine found a nice place with a work shop.... An old chicken farm. 5 buildings 60 feet wide by 150 feet long with good roofs, and construction, with a nice house. Total cost was 200K. Oh I forgot, 14 acres of land too. This was in lower NY state.
John
That isn't part of the scheme, he said he could butcher it, so he must have a clue, probably way more than a clue.
My point is there is no incorrect way as long as one observes sanitary procedure, may not be the way a professional does it and one may not end up with the standard cuts. Maybe the total idiot would prefer pork trimmings (whatever that is). I usually end up with bite size pieces before I stuff them in my mouth.
I was asked: COULD you butcher a hog, if you really needed to?
I answered: Yes, BUT, because I can, I've got sense enough to let somebody else do it.
Some points of clarification.
Where I came from, you start early in the morning to butcher a hog.
I don't do early in the morning any more.
Where I came from, you wait for cold weather to butcher a hog.
I don't do cold weather any more.
Where I came from, it's a lot of hard work to butcher a hog.
I don't do hard work any more.
Lew
=============== I am not sure how obvious an "s" on Gibbon is. I hope this did not interrupt the flow too badly when you were reading the section.
Dissertation was for EdD Oklahoma State University, 1999 (Stillwater, Oklahoma) Occupational and Adult Education
I was one of the last two graduates from that department/discipline. The other was a very good friend from Brazil and we still email about vocational/technical education in our countries.
Several problems.
I used endnotes and these don't come over [well] when doing a cut-n-paste to "text only" newsgroup postings.
I have made three moves since graduation and when I finely got around to converting the formatted and proofed MS doc file [done by some very talented dissertation typists] into pdf format for posting on my web site after I retired and had time, I discovered that several parts of the final file were unreadable, so had to use my unformatted block left working files. The appendix was one of those sections.
Unka George (George McDuffee)
...and at the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased, and the epitaph drear: ?A Fool lies here, who tried to hustle the East.?
Rudyard Kipling The Naulahka, ch. 5, heading (1892).
If you puncture the intestine you contaminate the meat and have a bunch of scrap. Pig shit must taste as bad as it smells. It will poison you too.
John
Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Gunner wrote on Sun, 06 Aug 2006 17:54:53 GMT in misc.survivalism :
Based on a sermon title from Dad's Seminary days ("Dead Hog and no Hot Water...") I'd say not having enough hot water is one factor. Don't ask me, I just pass 'em along.
If the dead pig doesn't manage to stick him in the process.
I'm not sure of all the details, but is seems that after Udo killed the hog, he placed the knife in the wrong place, and the dead pork roast "kicked" the knife right through his foot. In one side and out the other. Fortunately, Germany has good health care, but Udo was rather unhappy. he didn't feel right laying in bed all week, but orders are orders, especially when delivered by Herr Doctor. (And we had a couple English Nursing Sisters in the group, so he was Confined to his Room for the duration.)
I'll take your word for it.
pyotr
... snip
That's a really great idea. Only downside that I can think of is that (at least around where I grew up), those buildings typically had openings half-way up that easily opened for fresh air during the warm months. Not sure they were very weather or air-tight. Also, do you know whether they had concrete or dirt floors? But for a relatively small amount of remodeling, one could have a woodshop, a tractor restoration shed, a metalworking shop --- (Dang, I'm out of hobbies and still have two more buildings to go; I guess one could be used by the family for storage).
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Only if you dont follow proper procedures and wash out the body cavity after dropping the guts. Use a garden hose, then follow up with a gallon of vinegar. Works great on deer too.
Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner
Its embarrassing how many folks have to be reminded:
Righty tighty, lefty loosey.
Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner
I need a few Hercules monochrome graphics cards, some small footprint
486light pentium mobos (4-8meg ram max) and a half dozen monchrome monitors.I repair several brands of CNC equipment, PC (dos) based..and they use the above. Getting hard to find mono monitors
I can personally use some SCSI hard drives, no smaller than 10 gig. The (cant remember the connector name) that looks like IDE
My email addy..drop the no spam if its on this one.
I can pay modest amounts plus shipping to California.
Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner
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