OT - Basic Skills in Today's World

[CW]

A little background. I'm the foreman of a small machine shop. Business has been picking up greatly and we are in need of machinists. We are having very little luck in finding qualified people and when we find someone that seems promising, it generally turns out that they are no more than a machine operator. Able to set up and operate a CNC (usually a vertical mill) but no more, nor do they want to do more. We have gotten to the point of training people into the position. We have gone through a number of them. Many, when they find out that it is real work and they can't just stop thinking and show up to work on autopilot after a month or two, either quit or become worthless to the point that they get fired. We have two trainees in the shop right now. One is female (extremely rare in this trade). She never made it through high school but has a GED. I'm finding that she has a great learning ability and enthusiasm. It is quite obvious that her problems in school were due to boredom. To get her math skills up to par, I have been giving her homework. She has been doing quite well now that she sees a need. To bad someone couldn't have instilled a real world need in her in school. She'd be that much further ahead. The other trainee, a male, just out of high school, made a comment the other day that really struck me. He said "I took trigonometry for two years and thought it would never be good for anything. Then, the first job I get, I need it".

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message news:44d4dd32$0$6438$ [e-mail]...

[Morris Dovey]

| A little background. I'm the foreman of a small machine shop. | Business has been picking up greatly and we are in need of | machinists. We are having very little luck in finding qualified | people and when we find someone that seems promising, it generally | turns out that they are no more than a machine operator. Able to | set up and operate a CNC (usually a vertical mill) but no more, nor | do they want to do more. We have gotten to the point of training | people into the position. We have gone through a number of them. | Many, when they find out that it is real work and they can't just | stop thinking and show up to work on autopilot after a month or | two, either quit or become worthless to the point that they get | fired. We have two trainees in the shop right now. One is female | (extremely rare in this trade). She never made it through high | school but has a GED. I'm finding that she has a great learning | ability and enthusiasm. It is quite obvious that her problems in | school were due to boredom.

I see the exact same thing. One of my discoveries has been that enthusiasm, like love, is the outcome of an ongoing decision process. Let me encourage you to nurture her enthusiasm and to encourage the people around her to do the same (there are real benefits to both the nurturer and the nurtured in this process).

| To get her math skills up to par, I | have been giving her homework. She has been doing quite well now | that she sees a need. To bad someone couldn't have instilled a real | world need in her in school. She'd be that much further ahead.

I think I recall reading once that the root of "educate" was a word meaning "to lead". Those who failed to lead her missed out on the incredible experience of "turning the lights on" for another human being, which - to me - is truly sad.

Good on you!

| The | other trainee, a male, just out of high school, made a comment the | other day that really struck me. He said "I took trigonometry for | two years and thought it would never be good for anything. Then, | the first job I get, I need it".

Amazing, that :-D

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[Retief]

That is, they're all candidates for the "B Ark"... ;)

Retief

[Frank Boettcher]

Don't know where you live but I've never heard of that anywhere.

Most vehicles take 4 quarts. Cost for those and a filter about 12 bucks on sale. Cost at the quick change places about $25. There are no corner gas stations that change oil around here.

I always do at least two cars at a time, takes about thirty minutes total, at that rate I figure I make about $52 per hour spent. An ok part time endeavour, and I know it is done right.

The place where I buy my oil takes the old for nothing. National chains. Advance, Autozone, O'reillys, etc all do it here. I drop off the old when I buy the new.

City will take it. no charge. Encourage you not to send it down the sewer.

Special tools? I maintain four vehicles in my family and the only tools needed are a plug socket, extension, swivel and a rachet. Those transverse V6 engines offer a challenge for the back plugs but can be done.

My four vehicles currently average 140K. I do almost all the work on them.

The only issue today is having to buy an OBD II scan tool. But even those are not terribly expensive, and all the parts stores have them to use if you can get the vehicle to the store. May loan them out.

Well, never have done that with a diesel, but I kept an old Universal Atomic Four going for about 16 years in my last sailboat. Talk about a simple engine.

However, in the spirit of the original post, my sons do very little, and I don't know why they never took to it.

[Ace]

Guess it would be nice to see their basements, or even a workshop ????

[F. George McDuffee]

=================== Exactly the same reaction I got from both high-school [release time / concurrent] students and people who have been out of school for a while [work force development] when we get into using a sine bar to set/determine angles and do simple calculations such as helix angles in the machining classes.

Just how good can something be where you have to have a special police force to round people up and laws to imprison/fine their parents to get them to attend? It is the total lack of "hands on examples" and "contextualization" that is killing our educational system and it will continue to do so no matter how many times we make the students pee in a bottle, how many dress codes we impose, or how many uniforms we make them wear.

Slogans and endless repeating has not sold high cost, low quality Detroit cars and it won't sell high cost, low quality education to the students either, although it may keep the tax money flowing from Washington.

Unka George (George McDuffee)

...and at the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased, and the epitaph drear: ?A Fool lies here, who tried to hustle the East.?

Rudyard Kipling The Naulahka, ch. 5, heading (1892).

[F. George McDuffee]

===================== This is becase the students are doing what they were trained/educated to do -- exactly what they were told -- no more and no less. If you were looking for machine loaders/operators this would be what you were looking for.

Unfortunatly, you are expecting trainee machinists with initative, curosity, interest in a manual trade/activity, and a willingness to experiment. Students are quickly "cured" of these traits or are kicked out of school for being "disruptive."

Try posting your help wanted notices in places where the type of person you are interested in is likely to be, such as auto parts stores, hardware stores, machine supply stores, etc. Gun ranges can also be productive. Also talk to the machine shop instructors [*NOT* the department/division heads] at your local community colleges. They will generally have several people in their classes which have talent, interest and the right attitude.

Unka George (George McDuffee)

...and at the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased, and the epitaph drear: ?A Fool lies here, who tried to hustle the East.?

Rudyard Kipling The Naulahka, ch. 5, heading (1892).

[Emmo]

I would mention that those men who can do even the most basic of work, whether on the home or car, are richly rewarded by all the women who love being with someone who is 'handy'.

Examples: I changed an alternator in the parking lot of the Autozone in less time than the guy next to me took to replace his windshield wipers, and the woman I did this for couldn't wait to richly reward me for being so skilled. I nailed up a soffet vent that had come loose for my neighbor, and got a delicious cherry pie. I swapped out a ceiling fan for a sales rep and the woman told everyone at work what a great guy I was, "...and so handy, too"

I think its a code word...

I used these stories to convince my son to learn how to do this stuff, and recently he replaced a hood release cable for a girl in his dorm. He told me that she was very grateful, but he wouldn't share the details wih his old man...

[jtaylor]

True story:

Was visiting my aunt Prudence (that's her true name, too) and she had us all doing errands at the mall while she bought groceries. I got to go to the hardware store for something-or-other. I noticed a lady asking the clerk something and as I passed by I overheard him say "Those are what we call hammers, ma'am."

The best part was the _absolutely_ neutral tone of voice he used; give that guy a raise.

[Ace]

Good for you and/or your employer.

Just another view on the subject of education. Say you have a very lucrative hand assembly job for some of your machined components, but the actual procedure is so simple/boring that 'nobody in their right mind' would sit there all day doing it.

Will you insist on the person you hire for the job have math skills, etc, or would you settle for someone with a somewhat lower IQ who would be very happy to sit there all day? In other words, what happens to the individuals who don't happen to have the intellectual capacity on par with your top machinists?

Are they to be forever 'held back' in school till they become laughing stock of their so called class mates? Or should they be given a 'lower' grade, and proceed along with their friends/peers and ultimately enter society with some sense of dignity, get that boring assembly job you have and work tirelessly etc. for you?

I saw a scenario similar to this happen. After a employee was pestered for so long, he did quit...... It took four(4) other employees to do the same job, each only able to tolerate it for about 2 hours. Oh well............

Ace

Snippity snip, etc....

[JR North]

[Bonehenge]

Maybe they have a basement?

[Lew Hodgett]

If it interests you, start checking around.

Even my little Tonka Toy truck uses 6 qts with a filter change.

Must be a very small vehicle.

Around here, $15 gets an oil & filter change when they run a sale, but haven't checked since crude hit $75/bbl.

You obviously never worked on Volkswagons, especially the diesel ones, the little buggers damn near require a special tool to pop the hood.

It is obviously a labor of love.

They are obviously smart enough to have found what they consider more productive ways to spend their free time than being a weekend grease monkey.

Give them credit.

Everybody adopts what works for them.

Today, I'd rather make sawdust than spend time trying to get the grease out from my fingernails (even with gloves) after trying to mess with a vehicle.

Lew

[Ignoramus8770]

I have to mildly disagree with the originaly sentiment. I go to garage sales often, and I do see many garages with tools and machinery. Just recently I bought a huge kiln from such a garage (resold for 8x what I paid), or a big shop compressor (which I kept), etc. There are people out there with interesting stuff, although they are a clear minority.

Just today I saw someone selling 1-2-3 blocks, machinist vise etc. (he wanted too much for his stuff, e.g., $35 for a 1 hp motor with bad bearings)

i

[Ron Moore]

We're in Oklahoma. VERY few basements because of the water table. Definitely none in the neighborhoods I referred to. Respectfully, Ron Moore

[Ron Moore]

True, there are some bastions of creativity out there still. Not many in this area. Mostly I see a benchtop drill press, a plastic table saw and a few hand tools. Maybe an RAS. Nothing wrong with this picture if it's being used. Too many times around here, it's either brand new (and been that way for a while) or hasn't been used for many years. Maybe we just don't take time to use the tools we have available. Too hot, too tired, two jobs, etc. It's true, there out there. Just not that often. In other parts of the country, machinery is much more prevalent. Respectfully, Ron Moore Oklahoma

[CW]

Where I'm at right now, we do have that type of assembly work and yes, it is quite lucrative but very boring work. Our requirements are not nearly so high for that job for a couple of reasons. As you pointed out, the higher IQ individuals are not willing to do such a job and, of course, the job doesn't require it. Yes, people like that are very important. Unfortunately, getting the higher management to see that is proving difficult. Day before yesterday was the last day for our spring winder. He found an assembly job with another company making a few dollars an hour more. My thought is that there are no unimportant jobs. If a job was unimportant, why would anybody pay you to do it? You can't have a top without a bottom. Without a solid foundation, the top will collapse.

[digitalmaster]

don't blame the home builder...blame the home buyer.Builders build what sells.If workshops were a priority for most people most homes would have them.

[digitalmaster]

Not true.specialized equipment helps troubleshoot some problems.You can still change plugs,wires,air filter,brakes.oil,transmission filter,etc. without "a lot of specialized tools."

[digitalmaster]

Robert Heinlen I beleive.