OT: Meat eaters licence (update).

[Spike]

What an ego!

Have you considered donating yourself to medical science?

[T i m]

Damn. ;-(

It seems interesting that 'some people' can get so upset when you make them feel uncomfortable about their *choice to* torture and exploit animals, thinking there is any way that such actions could ever be considered acceptable (especially to the animals)? ;-(

Crazy eh Jim? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Tim Streater]

I'm reminded of what happened when it was Corporal Nobbs' turn to practice mouth-to-mouth on a dummy. The dummy got up and ran away. I think medical science would have the same reaction.

[T i m]

<snip>

Aww bless, nice little insight as to what you find memorable, I bet you really laughed out loud when you saw that!

Of course you do ... except you would probably think wrong as all my bits seem to be working ok still.

But hey, as long as I'm still living rent free in your head ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

"There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about."

Oscar Wilde

[Radio Man]

I was thinking the same about those who react badly when you point out by eating fruit and vegetables they are depriving living things of a life.

[NY]

I don't get uncomfortable, I just resent vegetarians and vegans trying to foist their diet on everyone else by making then feel guilty, when I as an omnivore wouldn't dream of doing that to a vegetarian/vegan: I accept and tolerate that not everyone is like me, rather than claiming any superiority. I hope that the animals I eat have been kept and slaughtered humanely, but I have no qualms about eating them.

I'd make a lousy vegetarian/vegan, because I eat to *enjoy* food, and I like meat and I passionately loathe vegetables - especially most green ones (peas, beans, brocolli, cabbage, and especially sprouts). If I had to become vegetarian (eg for health reasons) I'd probably lose a lot of weight, not only because vegetarian is healthier (which I am happy to admit) but also because I'd only be eating to stay alive, rather than also to enjoy. There are only so many peanuts and raw carrots/celery (two veg I actually like!) that you can eat.

It's unfortunate that the only green veg which I like is celery, and it's the only veg that my wife can't stand ;-)

[Jim GM4DHJ ...]

most animals feed on those below them including humans...way of the world ...

[T i m]

It's not 'a diet', it's way more than that (and that misunderstanding might be part of the confusion).

Why would they feel guilty, after all, they aren't doing anything wrong are they?

e.g. If someone says I'll go to hell because I don't believe in their religion, I don't care because it's *their* belief system.

Suggesting people consider what pain and suffering they *are* causing to innocent animals, simply because they like the taste of them or their secretions isn't a belief system, it's a statement of fact.

No, because you aren't stopping them from imposing their will re the torture of another creature? We aren't interfering with them for no reason, we are trying to stop them interfering with (= exploiting / torturing / killing) innocent animals?

If you saw someone torturing a child in the street, would you say / do anything? What if it was a dog or a cat? What if was a lamb?

Of course, but you must still have things you consider important, things you would 'stand up' for? Maybe you don't, maybe you prefer to bury your head in the sand and just ignore all wrongdoings (as many do of course).

So we get programs on Wood Green Animal Shelter and the RSPCA and I see far worse and systematically routine levels of animal cruelty on any farming show than I ever see on those. And yet people are arrested, fined, imprisoning and banned from owning / keeping animals for life? When you cat or dog become old or terminally ill, why doesn't the vet shoot it in the head with a bolt gun, if doing so is 'humane' (even if it needs several goes, like it often does in the abattoirs)?

You don't have to, in fact, it's quite the opposite. Women weren't allowed to vote because (some) men (typically) felt superior to them. Same applies to slavery, or the mistreatment of animals. It's respecting them and accepting that 'we' aren't superior to any of them.

Not much of a check though is it, just 'hoping'? Isn't it actually more like 'preferring to think that' because the alternative isn't nice, for them or you?

What if someone showed you proof, footage, evidence that demonstrated they were rarely treated 'humanely' and in fact the death was only a fraction of the 'issue', do you think that would change your mind (as I have a nice video list you can have). ;-(

But you don't really need a video of the process to imagine what

What, including if they are tortured (physically and emotionally) though whatever life they actually get?

Have you tried then?

Oh, trust me, so do we, we eat nothing else! ;-)

So did I, but then I learned (accepted) the truth.

I'm not a massive fan of vegetables either but being a vegetarian or vegan isn't all about eating straight veg but stuff that was made from veg. Tescos do a plant based sausage for example that looks very much like and tastes sufficiently like a traditional sausage but contains no dead animals, like this:

Again, what that doesn't make it as easy as it might, it's not all about the direct consumption of veg.

Well, I have lost weight since turning vegan and still eat good sized meals (that I enjoy) but what I'm not doing (so much) is eating all the other stuff, simply because they are there (like cakes, sweets and biscuits). If I'm in the mood for something sweet we keep Alpro yogurts in the fridge or I'll make a batch of vegan rock cakes (that everyone seems to like, vegan or otherwise as they are gone very quickly). ;-)

No, indeed (funnily, daughter bought me some cashews and 'monkey nuts' and some lovely cheesy kettle crisps for my birthday the other day), and I just have some walnuts on my breakfast (supposed to be good for your macula) and that's generally it.

The Mrs like boiled sweets and daughter finds her a steady supply of vegan ones and I like my dark chocolate and there id generally a bar in the fridge for me to have a row with my tea / coffee. [1]

I'd say that if I showed most people what we generally eat they wouldn't notice the meat wasn't meat and definitely wouldn't suggest we were starving ourselves.

Yup, not *liking* veg doesn't help you on the path of being meat free (if you chose to etc) but there are loads of options that look and taste like they have meat in them that don't. Non meat mince for example is a good based for yer spag bol / chilli and the rest is generally vegan in any case?

We were feeling a bit snacky just now and I just scraped some soft vegan garlic and herb soft cheese onto a Ritz cracker then put another on top (like a mini cheesy biscuit sandwich), we had 3 each and the Mrs wasn't sure if I bought or made them. She really loves them. ;-)

We are running low on stuff atm so looking in the freezer we have some non-meat mince and I have a jar of vegan pasta sauce, some tins of chopped tomato, and onion, some frozen mushrooms and several varieties of wholemeal pasta and so that's probably what we are going to have for tea (when I cook it).

Yesterday we had the seconds of a chickpea / Quorn / dhal '5 bean' curry with some boiled rice.

When I met the Mrs 30+ years ago she was a smoker (but not here) and when it looked like we might become and item we had a chat about the smoking and how much it didn't fit with me or any of my family. Knowing giving up mate sense (money, health, risk) she twisted the remains of the pack she had in half and hasn't smoked since.

Had you asked her a year earlier if she would ever give up smoking she would probably say she would like to but 'can't'.

She has, and hasn't has one since and although *sometimes*, if she's somewhere where she smells it it makes her think for a second she might like one, nearly as quickly the thought makes her gag and remembers how better off she is without.

I *like(D)* the taste and texture of some meat (I can't stand gristle, tubes in liver, or anything weird, like tongue etc) but the thought of the animals that all these parts come from suffering *at all*, let alone giving up their lives, *just* for my whim of wanting to eat them, is way too much for us now.

The only thing I can honestly say I miss the taste and flexibility off, is eggs (scrambled, boiled, poached etc). What stops we having one again ids knowing just how much we have exploited them for me to have what *I* like.

50% of the chicks (the males) macerated alive (or worse, suffocated in carbon dioxide).

The remaining 50% have the tips of their beaks lasered off, so they don't peck each other. The only reason they peck each other is because they are kept in vast numbers in a way that can't psychologically handy so they lash out out of frustration.

They are then kept for about a year, often in tiny spaces and laying around 300 eggs / year. This exhausts their reproductive systems meaning they are often killed at one year (they would normally live to

5 or 6 years) and suffer from osteoporosis due to a calcium deficiency (from producing all those shells). A wild hen would lay 10-15 eggs per year and typically in clutches (if we didn't take them away each time).

It must be like the worst form of slave labour plus the relentless emotional stress of being in huge numbers and having what should be your children taken away all the time. You only have to spend some time with some chickens to learn they are not 'machines'.

But I don't care if I have to adapt a bit or even miss out on some stuff, I can live happier knowing I was part of the solution, not only benefiting my own health but also reducing the drain on the world resources and pollution.

Cheers, T i m

[1] Daughter picked my up a new cheapo blender recently so I'll have another go at making my own oat milk later. We used up the first batch that whilst not being prefect, was all part of our journey into this new way of life. ;-)

p.s. 8 months into being a vegan and yesterday I walked 6.7 miles at a fair pace (next to the Mrs on the scooter, or I'd be walking slower) and did so easily. ;-)

[Richard]

'kin wrong again:

diet noun

1. the kinds of food that a person, animal, or community habitually eats. "a vegetarian diet"

[Fredxx]

I'm no more persistent than another troll who thinks a piece of paper will improve animal welfare.

What is wrong with you.

I said I would kill animals I would want/need to eat but prefer others to do that for me in the most humane way. I would hope no more torture than subjected to pets.

Yes, I wish to improve the conditions animals are slaughtered in and you don't. Furthermore you think a piece of paper will improve animal welfare. Is this the clue you mention?

Another clue is I would support campaigns to stop animals bleeding to death whilst upside down and aware of their surroundings.

If it's a vegan thing to not care about animal welfare then no I don't see the point what veganism is all about apart from wearing blinkers and being myopic to animal welfare.

[gopalansampath]

HERE IS AN HARMLESS VIDEO, ONLY BE SCCARED.... I mean Covid19 !!!

[Fredxx]

Tim and Kenneth seem to be on similar levels of fanaticism and realism. I'm sure they would get on well. :-)

[Richard]

WTF? Now having to go back to a post for which you provided the response: <q>

Perhaps you need to grow up? You back at school soon? </q>

and produce this link:

Which shows a person who really looks like he wants to be taken seriously.

Oh. So you do seem to be able to put things together and come up with the correct answer. Yep, farming is an industry. Seeds are planted, germinate, grow into various crops and eventually get harvested - sold - consumed etc.

Simple fact of life, we eat stuff.

[Radio Man]

To be balanced and fair, something alien to a left brainer like you, there will need to be vegetable eaters licences.

To qualify, you will need to talk to every fruit, vegetable etc before you murder it to justify your actions.

[Richard]

In defence of Tim (f*ck, that hurts) there are some people in his video link who I would not hesitate to humanely dispatch.

[T i m]

Quite and you have (at least) accepted that the way we treat animals (in general, across the world ... and a load of other things *of course*) is 'horrific'.

So, once we have determined that, we have to look what we can do about making it 'better' (in this case, 'livestock') and one sure fire way of reducing the amount of animals we eat and therefore need to kill and therefore need to rape (forcibly make pregnant), hold in inhumane conditions (concrete floored shed and pens), feeding them foodstuffs that were grown via the destruction of the rainforest and other areas and injecting them with all sorts of chemicals (inc the need for B12 because they wouldn't get it naturally) before killing them in the most industrially efficient or religiously required way.

All of it is 'horrific and I haven't even touched on the pollution and the resources used (that is self destructive / crazy).

Now, some of that might be 'an acceptable cost' (to humanity at least, not the animals of course) *if* what we consumed was considered 'healthy' for us but it generally isn't [1], or at least not in quantities way less than most of the western world consumes.

When bacon is rated as a Level 1 carcinogen alongside smoking and asbestos by the WHO it doesn't take much thinking to realise that isn't a 'good thing'.

We are told to eat *at least* 5_a_day, fruit and veg but we aren't advised to eat meat (other than by those with vested interest in the sale of such). I'm not saying there that eating any meat is bad for you, just that we don't need it.

Cheers, T i m

[1] It was the case once, when the ground contained higher levels of cobalt and that stimulated the growth of B12 is the guts of any animal consuming any cobalt rich soil (along with eating grass for example) and us eating fruit and plants that also had some soil / residue on them, and drinking water from rivers and streams that contained it.

Now days the levels of cobalt are very depleted to the point where they are applying it to the soil in selected areas and feeding and injecting and placing pellets of cobalt in livestock to supplement them.

[T i m]

You really don't get this human stuff do you. See, the 'just though' give me the opportunity to re-visit something, to ass or modify something discussed previously. You suggested the "knock one off" and so the (very recent) video from Ed fitted in with that nicely?

Maybe I should have signposted it all for you again?

I generally do, yes. Nothing I have said on the whole animal cruelty thing has been incorrect, even if some of it is (of course) idealised.

And there you go with the whoosh again.

Animals != goods. Animals aren't 'goods' like cars, TV's, angle grinders or even potatoes or bananas, animals are sentient creatures and no less important than us.

Of course, (and ignoring the point that animals aren't 'goods'), but we don't need to rape, torture and murder animals to eat and eat healthily. Many choose otherwise empathetic, compassionate and 'animal loving' people do so because there is a massive disconnection, the cognitive dissonance that currently exists in this ever more virtual world.

My point (and the main point) is that if we are able to sort that, then 1) at least people are *fully* aware of what they are doing (when they buy meat) and 2) some may then make a more informed choice re what / how much they consume.

How could anyone be against anything that keeps people better informed [1] (other than the meat / cigarette / fast food / slavery / drug industries of course)?

Cheers, T i m

[1] Yesterday they (peacefully) blockaded some of the Murdock owned print presses around the country as some positive action re the amount of control he has over the masses with his output. Most people not already indoctrinated by it would agree he has too much power and so support the protests. In general, some things only get done when people put themselves out ... chain themselves to a fence, get arrested or raise the profile of an issue by getting killing with a knee on their neck etc.

Reducing the cruelty against animals is easy when it's something the vast majority accept to be cruel, like hitting a dog or cat, but if no one sees, or imagines a pig, calf or lamb being hit whist they are in the process of being turned into their food, how will they ever be able to be part of the solution, not the problem.

As a stepping stone, if the livestock industry started to lose revenue because people were voting with their wallets re the cruelty, there is a good chance the industry itself would tighten up it's game. That said, it might find it difficult to recruit empathetic and compassionate slaughter persons ... ;-(

[Spike]

ROFL

You really don't read what you write, do you. Perhaps a sign of a monstrous ego.

[T i m]

I generally re-read everything I type before sending, so yes, both for spellings / typos and content.

I don't know, which side of this picture best represents you?

Cheers, T i m

[Fredxx]

Could try harder

This represent you to a T. Calm down!