OT: Meat eaters licence (update).

[Richard]

Your dogging call?

<snip>

Not playing. Really, you need help.

[T i m]

Oh, I thought I recognised your tone from somewhere ... not easy considering your mouth was full at the time (and you do have *some* talents). <wink>

Yup you are, like it or not.

But I'm not going to get it from a troll like you though am I?

It will be interesting to see just how many of the others who post OT stuff here with *NONE* of the clues to what it's about (unlike what I did) you try to harass?

But please don't stop trying ... I like a good laugh!

Cheers, T i m

[Spike]

Quite. When T i m said above that "...Herbivores.....have a different layout of teeth and digestive tract to us...", that clearly means that the human food-processing system developed for other reasons than a solely vegetable diet. He's just shot to ribbons his case for veganism by admitting that humans aren't equipped for that. As a result I think we can put this silly trolling of his to bed.

[Fredxx]

But not sufficient to overcome a deficiency.

Given there are significant amounts of B12 in animal products that doesn't seem to be the case, or at least not an issue.

Not to a fanatical vegan. Some of us obtaiour daily dose of B12 in a natural way by consuming meat products.

Yes, if our diet includes meat products.

No shit Sherlock, domesticate animals and pets included.

You mean they hunted; and ate meat in the same way we currently eat meat?

Or the world population doesn't increase.

Quite, how many children do you have?

[Fredxx]

I doubt many here are qualified in counselling.

And you call people names when they point out the fallacies in your arguments.

You laugh when not supporting improvements in animal welfare in abattoirs? Some of us call the leaving of animals upside down bleeding to death while alive and aware of their surroundings; laughable.

[Spike]

Earlier on in this thread you finally admitted that "...Herbivores.....have a different layout of teeth and digestive tract to us...", that clearly means that the human food-processing system developed for reasons other than a solely vegetable diet.

Now you are also saying that vegans can have a healthy diet if their food is enriched with, and they take supplements of, Vitamin B12. This of course requires an industrial-level society that can process, store, transport, and retail the *necessary* supplementation.

You do realise that you have again just shot to ribbons your case for veganism by admitting that humans aren't equipped for that, and never were. As a result, veganism is unnatural for humans.

As a result of your own postings, that you clearly haven't thought through, I think we can put your silly trolling to bed.

[Jethro_uk]

Just to play devils advocate, I'd suggest we probably eat more meat than we *need* to in the west.

Pretty sure that many historians have noted that even till relatively recently Britons got by with surprisingly little meat.

[T i m]

<snip>

Yup. Ok, more fact for you (as you obviously don't care to seek it out for yourself but you insist on giving me a platform to out you for the troll you are ...), 70% of the B12 that is synthesized is fed directly to livestock ... so that when we slaughter and eat it, we then get the B12.

Not only is this done for factory farmed livestock that never see the soil or water that would expose them to the bacteria that would *then* allow *the bacteria* to generate the B12, even the grass fed / organic stock is supplemented because of depletion of cobalt in the soil worldwide (along with other cobalamins).

So, we could once survive 'naturally' as vegetarians because we got the bacteria needed from the water and soil, now we *or the livestock* can't, hence why we *ALL* need B12 supplements.

Now, as a Vegan I know I'm getting my B12 because most vegan foods are supplemented. If you are relying on getting your B12 from meat you had better check that IT is being B12 supplemented.

Feeding B12 to livestock for us to kill and eat, not to us directly just to get our B12 is ridiculous. All part of the cognitive dissonance of the entire meat consuming process.

I wonder where all the worlds resources are going ...

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

And why *all* the health advice is about avoiding processed meat where possible and eating less meat in general, not eating less veg. ;-)

And ironically, don't actually *need any* now, because of how we feed more B12 supplements to livestock than we feed directly to ourselves (because they need it supplemented as much as we do).

Add to that the resource consumption, the pollution and the cruelty surrounding the whole livestock industry and it really is a no brainer (for the vast majority of us). ;-)

It really is strange, watching the cognitive dissonance of someone dropping their milkshake or steak and rushing out of a restaurant to admonish someone for abusing their dog?

It's ok to abuse a cow, chicken or fish but not a dog because ... ?

Cheers, T i m

[Jethro_uk]

Don't get me started on the pampered pooch people ...

[Spike]

<snip>

Not at all. You are merely saying that to mitigate the problems of a vegan diet, all you need to do is eat dirt. I bet you don't.

Thanks for confirming that you have taken the industrial-society way out of your problems.

Only ridiculous to someone using Cognitive Dissonance with regard to the drawbacks of their veganism. The animals so fed are no different to you; you don't eat dirt, and neither do they, yet they need B12 as much as you do. So their feed is supplemented, just as yours is. OTOH, if you think their supplementation is 'ridiculous', then have it withdrawn and let the animals suffer.

You hadn't thought this through, had you?

After admitting that a vegan diet is deficient, you now need to address the issue you raised earlier on in this thread when you finally admitted that "...Herbivores.....have a different layout of teeth and digestive tract to us...", which clearly means that the human food-processing system developed for reasons other than a solely vegetable diet.

Perhaps you had better have a think and reformulate your silly Meat Eaters Licence, because so far you have turned your own arguments for it into rat shit.

[T i m]

;-)

Well, my point would apply to any sort of dog, from a 'pampered pooch' to a working / guard dog ... 'people' will typically jump up to defend cat, dog or donkey from abuse but will happily drink milk or eat meat or eggs without a thought (and so ignorance or 'turning a blind eye' / 'preferring not to think about it') to the cruelty they *are* causing in so doing.

And it doesn't just have to be physical cruelty:

(picture) (explanation)

It's the cognitive dissonance I was trying to highlight and how it might affect 'most people', (via the two particular Youtube videos), if they were presented with it:

The point being is that I really belive there would be less cruelty to ... and exploitation of animals if more people took the responsibility of better understanding what it takes to put such food on their table.

Many wouldn't care *what* goes on behind the scenes (we have seen some state such here), as long as their can satisfy their appetites / desires but in the main, most humans are compassionate (possibly more so with women than men, 'maternal' instinct etc) and might, if given enough support and education, make some different food choices.

This is already happening of course, we (vegans) are now riding the wave of both commercial and (to a greater degree) personal acceptance of doing what's right, just in the way the focus changed with the rights of smokers versus non-smokers etc.

You can never argue for the case where people *not* imposing a level of persecution / suffering on others (people / animals) have fewer rights or respect than those who do?

But this isn't forcing anyone to do (or not do) something, this is (hopefully) helping / encouraging them making choices that would actually be better for them (health), better for the animals (welfare) and better for the environment (resources, pollution).

Cheers, T i m

[Tim Streater]

Of course they exploited it. Taking what you need to survive is no less exploiting it than what we do today. Whereas then, lots of individuals took what they needed, today we have one person taking what 100 people need, keeping some for himself and giving the rest to others in exchange for what they have to offer. This is called a "market".

[Tim Streater]

No doubt we do, but try explaining that to the masses enjoying their burgers. I'll even hold your coat for you if you like.

[T i m]

When you do people are often made uncomfortable (guilt (why?), realisation ...) and often agree that what we do with intense Livestock Farming especially and animal exploitation *is* bad and *is* wrong and eventually agree (when properly informed) that it is mostly unnecessary (today).

Getting them to undo the indoctrination (like the B12 BS) and change their habits (overcoming the cognitive dissonance) takes a bit more time (but is happening).

However, there are people in this world who have either been sufficiently well programmed or have a specific makeup who have no respect for anything other than themselves and who would happily kill another human being or animal [1] but then they are a whole different discussion.

Cheers, T i m

[1] And I'm not talking about the euthanasia of an ill or injured animal or survival, I'm talking about disregarding animal welfare by mass farming techniques and the excess consumption of animal based products out of choice / greed (where healthier and more sustainable alternatives are readily available).

[T i m]

<snip ignorant trolling>

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Hey, talking of trolls .. so in your stupid twisted trolling mind the word 'herbivore' and 'vegetarian are the exact same thing?

Humans aren't herbivores (we don't graze or browse) for the reasons I explained, nor do we primarily eat one thing (like a Xylophage or Nectarivore) but you are obviously too thick to appreciate.

Humans can be vegetarians (out of choice or circumstance) but aren't 'obligate vegetarians' but are omnivores (meaning we *can* also eat a range of things other things than fruits and veg etc, but not that we have to).

So, thanks again for playing but FFS try harder to keep up you thick troll. ;-(

1/10

Cheers, T i m

[Spike]

Then ask yourself why you introduced the term, if it is irrelevant to the discussion.

You didn't think this through, did you?

Humans can be vegetarians, but according to you they need to eat dirt as well in order to make up for the dietary shortcomings.

You didn't think this through, did you?

Perhaps you had better have a think and reformulate your silly Meat Eaters Licence, because so far you have turned your own arguments for it into rat shit.

[T i m]

<snip pathetic trolling>

Correct, well done.

I doubt it very much. More like 'according to science ...'

Correct (you might get there in the end). Soil microbes found around plant roots. We (or animals) eat the pants and gain the microbes (or used to) and (therefore) guts of animals (inc us).

"Early humans received plenty of B12 from the good quality (cobalt-rich) soil that was yet to be intensively farmed and drained of nutrients, and because they drank dirty ("natural") water from rivers which also contained B12 and B12 producing bacteria.

The declining soil quality isn't just a problem for humans though - it's a problem for farmed animals too. Cattle naturally get B12 and bacteria that produces B12 from clumps of dirt around the grass roots, and chickens get B12 from pecking around for worms and other insects.

But most factory-farmed animals are kept indoors and never even see soil during their lifetimes, so would certainly be deficient without supplementation. These horrible artificial conditions make the "vegan diet is unnatural" argument seem somewhat ironic. In fact, around 95% of all B12 supplements manufactured are actually given to farmed animals.

So people who then consume the meat from these animals are just receiving the B12 which originally came from the supplements fed to the animals. Isn't it far better to simply take a B12 supplement and cut out the middle man?"

Read it and learn something rather than just flapping your gums and showing everone just how ignorant a troll you are (likely a B12 deficiency).

<snip more pathetic trolling>

Cheers, T i m

[Spike]

That your answer to everything that queries your silly, thoughtless ideas.

You've used it so often it has lost any real meaning.

argumentum ad verecundiam

So what you're saying is that B12 supplementation should be removed from the animals' diet. Presumably to obtain this goal, that you've mentioned before, you are quite happy to let the animals suffer the consequences. That's shameful.

It's only ignorant to someone using Cognitive Dissonance with regard to the drawbacks of their veganism. The animals so fed are no different to you; you don't eat dirt, and neither do they, yet they need B12 as much as you do. So their feed is supplemented, just as yours is. OTOH, if you think their supplementation is 'ridiculous', then have it withdrawn and let the animals suffer the consequences. That's shameful.

You hadn't thought this through, had you?

Perhaps you had better have a think and reformulate your silly Meat Eaters Licence, because so far you have turned your own arguments for it into rat shit.

You could always avoid this conflict raging in your head, by eating a proper diet.