OT Mandatory speed limiters on UK cars from 2022

[Tim Streater]

2017 Toyota Auris.

[Roland Perry]

In message [e-mail]>, at 09:54:49 on Thu, 9 Sep

2021, Bob Eager [e-mail] remarked:

I always glance up, and take one last look.

[Roland Perry]

Maybe I'll go out and measure a few (there are plenty of all three[1] kinds locally) but the sizes don't appear to be very different on a drive-by. And I doubt these hypothetical lamp-fitting-detecting cameras would worry too much about the diameters of the poles.

[1] That's wooden ones, I'm obviously excluding the metal flagpole type.

[Roland Perry]

In message [e-mail]>, at 08:55:43 on Thu, 9 Sep

2021, Tim Streater [e-mail] remarked:

Much less than it used to (although I haven't seen statistics on it, just going by traffic reports from locals).

[Roland Perry]

In message [e-mail]>, at 11:59:36 on Thu, 9 Sep

2021, Andy Burns [e-mail] remarked:

And here on the 40mph dual-carrigeway Leeds Ring Road (20mph for the service road)

[Roland Perry]

The key word there is "possible", but it depends on how many posts, and how far apart they are, neither of which is normally evident when you encounter the first one.

[Roland Perry]

And they also have to be sufficiently close.

The first place I saw 30-repeaters was a village in Essex with extremely sporadic street lighting (often sharing wooden poles).

I presume those repeaters are a courtesy, rather than legally required to reinforce the signs at the ends of the village.

[Robin]

No repeater signs are "legally required". There are recommended sizes and spaces but in the end its down to the traffic authority to decide.

[Roland Perry]

In message [e-mail], at

07:47:15 >> In message [e-mail], at

I thought they were legally required, for example to indicate that a road with street-lights is nevertheless 40mph.

[Robin]

I think you think wrong - as do the authors of Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual.

[Roland Perry]

In message [e-mail], at

10:13:48 >> In message [e-mail], at

That's a huge surprise to me. So if you are driving on a road in a built up area, with streetlights, the limit could in fact be anything from NSL to 30mph, depending on you spotting a big sign at the entry to stretch of road?

[nightjar]

...

That must be a fairly recent change, presumably from the same time as they dropped the need for two terminal limit signs. There always used to be a requirement for repeaters 'at regular intervals'. Regular intervals was not precisely defined, although the TSM gave recommendations, which can still be found in table 8-4 of Chapter 3.

[Robin]

I don't think it is a change. I think the position has long been that repeaters are /recommended/ but not /required/.

I don't doubt that in many decision takers apply the recommendations routinely without thought. And many of the people who install the signs may well think there are hard and fast rules. But the position in law is still that it is discretionary. And discretion is exercised in some areas - e.g. National Parks/

[Robin]

Aaaaaaaaaagh! Why is it that just after posting I recall the "but"?

But you are right that there was a change in 2016 at the same time as the "2 terminal signs" that dropped a requirement for repeater signs. was dropped. The change removed the requirement for repeater signs.

But (again) that only required at least /one/ repeater sign. And that requirement was only introduced in 2011.

So yes, it was a change, but a change back to the way it was for a long time.

I think.

[Roland Perry]

In message [e-mail], at

11:53:53 >> >>>> >>>>> In message [e-mail], at

Is that one per speed limit zone, or only on one side of the road?

[Roland Perry]

In message <vI+CfVBa+ [e-mail], at 06:39:38 on Fri, 10 Sep 2021, Roland Perry [e-mail]> remarked:

Here's pair of them, the one on the left is power, the one on the right telephone.

Nearby, a shared pole.

[nightjar]

If you look carefully, you will see that the telephone pole is thinner and has steps on the sides of the upper half. They allow an engineer to reach the top of the pole without having to carry a very long ladder on the van. The electricity engineer will use a van mounted cherry picker. Openreach seem to be moving that way too, but most of their vans still just carry ladders.

Thicker and without steps, hence an electricity pole that telephones are allowed to run from.

No, but I would expect it to be possible to detect a lamp head fitted to one.

[nightjar]

Given the disruption a bridge strike can cause to the railway, I am surprised that they don't make more use of advance vehicle height detection systems or, as I have seen at a couple of places, a big free-standing steel structure a few feet ahead of the bridge, which will take the impact.

[Andy Burns]

Like this one with beam-break sensors, lots of signs, big flashing lights and turning loops for HGVs?

The system was fitted no later than 2008

Jul 2009

Jun 2014

Jul 2014

Oct 2017

Feb 2018

Nov 2018

Dec 2018

And many others ...

Good job the 11'8" bridge (now extended to 11'16") has the beam as well as the flashing lights

[Roland Perry]

Those warning signs at my local infamous railway bridge (actually it's an underpass) have never seemed to sufficient deterrent. Some drivers of egregiously overheight vehicles get turned back (and none of the last hundred strikes there have been by one of those) but people in vehicles like this[1]:

Must either think the sign applied to a vehicle other than theirs (maybe one behind) or that it was being over-pessimistic.

Or like this, they forgot how big their load was:

Disallowed under Highways Acts (erecting *deliberate* obstructions)[2]. Loopholes are: if you fix it to the bridge itself, it gains grandfather rights. Exceptions are: things that aren't quite highways, but have separate Acts of Parliament and specific bylaws, like Blackwall Tunnel.

[1] Not a van for a change, but any aircon on the roof would have been a write-off. And in either case, the bridge would just shrug it off. I've not seen a single one where trains were stopped for more than half an hour (and the most-bashed span is on a goods loop anyway) or any that would have needed actual repairs.

Lots of people have literally just-scraped-through (Streetview snapshot):

[2] And while there are some exemptions for approved temporary structures, permanent ones need planning permission, and there are codes-of-practice which say this should be refused.