OT: And yet another reason to go vegan (if any more were needed). ;-(

I've never quite understood this idea meat eaters have that veges want to eat imitation meat. Why?

NT

Ok, in case you haven't see my explanations before, here it is again ...

Fact for you. Most vegans / vegies were brought up as meat eaters and when they were doing so, they enjoyed it. That has never been in question. So, if they could eat something that looks, cooks and tastes like something they did once enjoy, why not?

Most didn't become vegan (in particular) because they didn't like the taste of meat, but because they couldn't accept, justify or want to be party to all the animal suffering / exploitation / death that goes with it, and in 2020, for no real reason for a vast number of people.

3) If you make something that looks, tastes and cooks like what they are familiar with they know how to use it (and what to accompany it with).

So, just as in many older people won't try anything that doesn't look like what they know and have been indoctrinated [1] to accept as 'standard food', meat and two veg, fish on Fridays etc ... won't touch any of that 'foreign muck' (like curry, pizza, spag bol etc) many would be even less likely to touch a 'vegan sausage' that was triangular or vegan chicken that was in cubes (just as you can get real chicken of course).

So why re-invent the wheel? If I fancy something that looks like the cuisine of the Far East, a pancake roll (that I've eaten before) that happens to be filled with something that tastes like duck, but isn't, why not?

Daughter did herself a fish finger sandwich yesterday, because she likes that combination of 'fish', batter, bread and tomato sauce ... and suggested that anyone who was just looking to satisfy a hunger / particular taste combo desire would probably just eat without question, and why wouldn't we / they, rather than cause all the distress to the fish as they are dragged from their world into ours (often killing loads of other species (by-catch) in the process, along with wrecking the environment [1]) to suffocate to death, when you didn't need to? That doesn't mean we can't still have 'fish fingers' (that were never fish 'fingers' of course) does it?

Now, when you go vegan you often also start looking a bit closer at what you eat and so often end up eating 'better' and many and certainly the more experienced cooks / vegans make most stuff from scratch to even further clean their diets, so don't generally bother making anything look like anything they ate previously, it's just all food but without the assumption it's ok to take the life of another and often sentient / intelligent / innocent life.

They also mention that in a desperate attempt to save some of these ecosystems (and allow the 'stocks' to recover so they can be exploited again) they have created 'no-fish' areas, except they are still being fished by both UK and 'foreign' fishermen.

Only one bite, T i m; you'll need to up your game.

Fighting a made up battle again Tim.

Spring rolls are vegetable filled normally. They are often served with crispy duck which you eat in pancakes you roll the duck into but they aren?t spring rolls.

They just like to pretend they are enjoying the bad diet they eat. Did you see there is a new vegan butcher that has just opened? What next a nudist clothes shop?

Friends of mine have already been down to the farm to see the turkeys running around a field before ordering one to be plucked and dressed for Christmas.

Yeah, I also saw that from a 'hard hit' (Covid etc) turkey farmer (awww, boo hoo) that allowed people to select and name a turkey and visit it if they wanted until it's throat was cut.

Now, whilst that might be seen as a good thing as at least it links the living creature to what you see on your plate, for the 'whole experience' the consumer *should* be there as his / her throat was cut and they were disembowelled and plucked etc? [1]

See above.

Cheers, T i m

When I was very small, we used to keep chickens in a run, using the now defunct air-raid shelter as their coop. I knew where the chicken feed was kept, and I used to feed them though the wire. Although small, I knew which hens were which, and they used to come up to the wire if they thought I had some feed.

Every now and then, the licensed slaughterman who lived just up the road would come round. He would kill a couple of the chickens by wringing their necks, then breaking their jaws so they would bleed out while being hung by their tethered feet. At the right time, my parents would pluck them, clean them, dress them for the oven, cook them, and serve them as a special treat. I saw all these processes taking place.

This was a time of post-war rationing, which was stricter than it was during the war. I don't suppose people remember that at all, or that the quality of the vegetables and fruit on offer was simply dreadful, due to government policy, so a roast chicken dinner was really something to appreciate - and we did. I still like roast chicken to this day.

I thought anyone could kill a chicken. Or were your parents squeamish?

Don't know about then ... but

Currently, if it is your personal property and it is to feed your _immediate_ family and it has been 'reared' on your land, then as long as you cause no unnecessary pain, suffering or distress then yes, you can.

However it takes skill.

If for any other reason then some kind of license/certificate of competence is needed.

Avpx

According to some here we are all hunters so no one would be 'squeamish' about killing anything would they? It would be perfectly natural and instinctive, like it is for a carnivore killing their prey.

Or is it that it's actually not natural for us to kill anything, and we have just (in 2020) been indoctrinated to (continue to) consume products that aren't good for us, the environment or the animals?

Ok, we *are* being told to cut out all processed meats and cut back on our meat consumption (for our health) and we *are* being told we should be aiming for a plant based diet to reduce resource wastage and decrease pollution and they *are* ploughing millions into both subsidising and marketing meat and dairy because people are seeing the light and moving away from it. And that's more powerful than any company or government, the power of managing the demand by the consumer that *directly* impacts the supply.

And why should a dairy farmer be any less vulnerable to the changing times than a wheelwright, coal miner or lion tamer? The ones who can see the writing on the wall are already either closing shop or diversifying to things that aren't so morally indefensible, or are being forced to close shop because of circumstances where their 'trade' puts millions of human lives at risk, like mink farming.

And of course, the earlier you are exposed to animal cruelty and exploitation (that would generally be illegal if not done by people who call themselves 'vet', 'farmers' or abattoir workers (< I bet that's an effective chatup line)) the quicker such activity becomes normalised and the whole sad procedure carries on (turning some into psychopaths).

Fewer hurdles, more understanding so more acceptance the more normalisation and more pushback from the 'old ways' where people though they had agency over everything. They never did of course, (especially morally) but took ... not given, the lives of others for survival, no longer the case for many in 2020.

Cheers, T i m

OOI, my mate who used to do a bit of game shooting, killed his own terminally ill dog when out with him one day, because he knew that would be less stressful than even having him quietly put to sleep by the local vet.

In this case it was a 12 bore shotgun from a very short distance.

Even when the outcome is likely to be the same for the animal?

The egg laying male chicks were 'reared' so you own them so can kill them, slowly by suffocation in CO2 if you want?

Good marketing which fooled you. Crispy duck like bacon is one of those things veg chompers Miss they used this as a marketing ploy even though spring rolls don?t have duck in them.

A very good reason to eat meat, or meat products is your levels of B12:

Being vegan is bad for you. One of the consequences is mental health issues including issues with obsession and fanaticism:

If you hanker after eating meat, then as you say, why not?

It is hardly indoctrination to eat a healthy balanced diet.

The alternative is to be obsessive and spend much of your time being a fanatic through mental health issue from a deficiency in B12:

B12 deficiency is real problem. For various reasons, I regularly read where people suffering the most horrible problems eventually find out why. A major problem being the time it can take between removing B12 from diet and actually suffering symptoms - often years. A second problem is the testing which has an "if it isn't below bottom of range, you haven't got a problem" approach.

That was my take, and why so many vegans are in denial there is an issue. Substantial amounts of B12 is stored in the liver and, as you say, can take years to exhaust.

One small portion of steak will maintain B12 levels for a very long time.

Most of those I read about actually have Pernicious Anaemia or some other issue, but a lot simply do not consume enough (or any) B12-containing foods.

I often take B12 tablets - a few years ago I thought I would try B12 for a pain issue. It helped a lot.