O.T. electric cars - do they have gearboxes?

I've just been for a ride in someone's Nissan Leaf - it was impressive, so quiet and amazing acceleration.

Do electric cars have a gearbox (an automatic one I presume)? Or does the motor just run faster the faster you go? I was told by the owner the optimum speed for economy of battery usage is about 55mph.

It doesn't sound like it's changing gear.

Reply to
Murmansk
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Murmansk wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

No gearbox or clutch.

Reply to
DerbyBorn

Well, not like a IC car. They have gearboxes to reduce motor speed to wheel speed.

Reply to
Huge

Usually. Some do have a two speed gearbox.

Tim

Reply to
Tim+

Mainly because an electric motor, when correctly driven, can generate torque from zero speed and don't have such severe upper limits to the speed because there are no reciprocating parts which have to rapidly reverse direction.

Not having a gearbox (automatic or manual) must make it much easier to drive because torque/acceleration is directly dependent on accelerator position and not a combination of that and gear ratio - you don't get gentle acceleration which suddenly becomes kick-in-the-back acceleration as the automatic transmission reacts to your gradually increasing accelerator position by suddenly deciding to change down in a situation where a manual driver would hold onto the present gear. I find this the hardest thing about automatics: I accelerate out of a roundabout and the car suddenly lurches forward so I ease off the throttle slightly and it changes back up - very difficult to hit the happy medium.

It is also easier to build in torque limiting to any value, to prevent the car lurching forwards if you press the accelerator too hard when setting off from rest, or for a cruise control to also accelerate you briskly and yet smoothly from one speed (eg rest) to the another speed speed. The fact that (AFAIK) no cars implement this doesn't mean it's not possible to do.

Reply to
NY

Well written software on an auto should make it change rather like a well driven manual.

But it's a pretty poor auto that 'lurches' forward. And where it changes down where there is no need. The now ancient pure mechanical GM auto in my old Rover is pretty well always in the gear I'd choose if it were a manual, and certainly never lurches forward. Of course if you floor it at moderate speeds it will drop to 1st gear and take off like a scalded cat. But not something that happens by accident.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Some have gearboxes. 2 speed maybe.

But torque goes down to zero revs, so if you dont mind a bit of inefficiency, you don't need one to start.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

The severe upper limit is ion fact the driving voltage, When the motor back EMF hit's that, it wont go faster.

Torque is directly proportionment to current. If you monitor that and pedal position and use the difference top adjust a PWM chopper, then the behaviour will be as you describe. It is not 'given' though. It has to be designed in.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Not only - but motors can be geared virtually - by changing the number of poles.

Say you have a 24 pole motor. By deciding how to drive the windings in phase or antiphase, you can pair off adjacent poles for an effective 12 pole, 8 pole, 6 pole etc setup.

More poles = slower and higher torque, less poles = higher rpm.

I have no idea if this method is used by any car motors but I think some trains do - you can hear the "whirrr... whirrr" which I can only explain as pole changing as the motor is otherwise directly connected to the axel.

However, I'm pretty sure most traction has at least one set of fixed gears as motor rpms tend to be higher than desired wheel rpms.

Reply to
Tim Watts

Well even there you would be wrong. Its depends on how many poles the motor is built with (as opposed to driven).

I could explain the theory, but you wouldn't understand it would you?

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Internal combustion engines are inherently unsuitable for traction, hence the need for gearboxes/clutches etc. Electric motors can be designed to be ideal for traction. Max torque at zero rpm. However this leads to skidding on moving from rest so most have some form of traction control. Some electric cars have gearboxes but not many. Morgan was one of them. When you have owned and electric car, you won't want to go back to petrol/diesel. They are very cheap to run but costly to buy. No road tax ATM

Be warned, nobody can fix them if they go wrong. Parts are modular and expensive. Batteries are very expensive. There are lots of theories about battery life/deterioration. No-one seems to know the truth.

Reply to
harry

Drivel. The motors are three phase synchronous motors with rare earth magnets, not milk float motors.

Reply to
harry

What drivel you write.

Reply to
harry

It depends. Many do not have them and use motors driven a bit like those in CD players with constant torque no matter ewhat speed, while others use gear trains but motors running quite fast. Of course hybrids are far more complicated.

The problem with quiet cars though is that crossing the road in poor visibilityccan be very dangerous. Brian

Reply to
Brian Gaff

Perhaps you should check your facts before you go slagging people off:

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I'll accept an apology when you've read that.

Perhaps you could try - or is it beneath you?

Reply to
Tim Watts

People would simply say 'too long, didn't bother to read it' and go back to believing simple fairy tales as per usual.

Lets just deal with one aspect. Number of poles. There is a given amount of iron you can cram into a motor, that, plus the magnets you use (unless they are electromagnets) determines the amount of energy *per magnetic reversal* you can get in and out of the system

This leads to a simple rule: the more revs (reversals) the more power. Until other factors limit you, as high frequencies start to impose their own extra losses, as does friction.

Adding more poles allow for more reversals per shaft rotation. It is equivalent to a gearbox. However only using *some* of those poles nets you nothing, because you are simply using less ironwork. Its pointless. No one does it. It is simply like having a smaller motor that weighs more.

Electric motors are UTTERLY different from other motors.They dont really have a 'power rating' re se. Only when fed from a given voltage.

I've run motors designed for 3V, generally used at 6-7v, at 11-12 v and got more than three times the power out of them. The limitation was brush bounce and wear in that case, and the availability of gearboxes to get the insane RPM down to something usable..

In practical terms a multipole motor is bigger and more expensive than a two or three pole motor* BUT if the gearbox you need to use is more expensive and heavier...then the multi-pole wins slightly.

Some of the model motors used to come with kevlar wound rotors, to stop them exploding. More revs, more power.

That's part of the simple story. The more complex story involves understanding copper losses (resistance) iron losses (hysteresis and frictional motor losses) plus issues with the controlling electronics (peak currents, inductance, switching losses and so on). And it it uses permanent magnets, the field strength, weight, and performance versus temperature of those as well.

Each one of which is a book chapters worth.

*two magnetic, three wound poles is the most basic uni-directional motor.
Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

OK - fine. But you haven't explained why it's "bollocks". I've found references to train traction using, at some points in history, pole changing configurations.

Also the type of motor described in the Wiki was an induction motor so no permanent magnets.

Most EMUs these days use induction motors, even on DC lines so the power electronics is there either way.

I'm not sure how having a larger number of lighter stator windings is worse than 2-3 large windings either. Would any large traction motor really use a 3 pole configuration - it seems unlikely - the starting torque would suffer.

Reply to
Tim Watts

sigh. You see. I explain, and it makes no difference.

A 3 pole motor and a 3:1 gear box is EXACTLY equivalent to a 9 pole motor of the same size.

If you found references to pole changing it was almost certainly using all the poles but putting them in series or parallel pairs.

If you only have contactor type switches that's a very crude way to limit starting current. i.e a 6 pole motor can be connected as a 3 pole motor with either twice or half the RPM per volt and twice or half the starting torque or current. Depending whether you series or parallel the windings.,

But that isn't 'switching poles off' .

And all it really does is ensure you can start without burning the motor out. These days an electronic controller does that better.

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Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

We looked at the Tesla and were told it didn't have a gear box.

We decided against all electric, we don't like the idea of being stuck with a 'flat' battery on a journey. The idea of stopping for 'top ups' on a long journey is fine until you consider the practical aspects.

Reply to
Brian Reay

As a matter of interest, is anyone looking (as in considering making) a hybrid electric? As in, rather than having a powerful petrol engine, a less powerful electric motor, a normal size fuel tank and a smaller battery (like my Toyota Auris), instead have a full-size electric motor, larger battery, but with a small petrol engine and small fuel tank?

That way one could stop anywhere to recharge or even do it on the go.

Reply to
Tim Streater

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