How does a Wi-Fi only tablet route on Google Maps when on the road?

[nospam]

they are.

apple combines both gps and cellular for assistive gps. without cellular, the time for an initial gps fix can potentially be very long.

[nospam]

ios devices haven't used skyhook wireless in nearly a decade and the mechanism to obtain the user's location doesn't use trilateration.

apple, along with google and microsoft, now have their own databases.

[nospam]

right over there --->>

[nospam]

for you, everything is hard.

for the rest of the world, it's easy.

[mike]

A system that required connecting to random sites would be useless. A while back, I experimented with the concept and was amazed by how accurately my position could be determined without gps or cell service. Google knows the exact location of almost every access point. I don't know how it interpolates, but it appears to do so. You don't have to connect to the site to determine its location. I don't have any experimental data to confirm. I assume that when you download an offline google route, you must also get the map of access points along the route. An interesting experiment would be to go perpendicularly to the route and see how far you get before it throws up its hands.

The problem happens when you are in an area between major population areas and there are no access points within range.

I assert that 'knowing why' is overrated. Take the thing on a test route and see what happens. Knowing why won't help you at all. You already know that it's based on wifi.

If you just want to get there, a cheap used phone will very likely have gps and you can use something like MapFactor Navigator to do the routing. That works very well until you get into an area where the crowd-sourced information is missing or wrong.

A dedicated GPS is a more useful device, but the cheap ones you get at garage sales and thrift stores have older maps. That turns some people off. I just find a nearby location that is on an older road and route to there. Perfection is overrated...

[Clare Snyder]

It works with the unconnected wifi points in the local area - whiuch means outside built-up wifi intense areas it is TOTALLY USELESS.

As a navigation device it is a BAD JOKE

[Clare Snyder]

I have at least 3 non-apple wifi only pads that all have GPS. None cost anywhere CLOSE to $300.

[nospam]

every android phone in the area updates their database.

[Ragnusen Ultred]

Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 23:58:55 -0400, schrieb nospam:

Look nospam, I can read you like a book.

You can /never/ prove a single statement you make. You just can't.

The reason is that you don't know the answer, and, you just guess.

Every once in a while, your guess is correct just as a monkey will be correct every once in a while guessing under which box the the banana is.

You don't know anything about this subject, which is clear from the fact that you just guess on everything about it, and you've been wrong already in this very thread, where you still feel the inbred need to act like a child in every post nonetheless.

Please just go away since a. You clearly know nothing about the subject matter, and, b. You don't have any intention to ever act like an adult should.

Just go away. Please. You're just an annoying child.

The technical question of what Google Maps is using, since these are each possible together or alone:

1. Is Google using the geolocation of the *connected* WiFi access point?
2. Or is Google using the geolocation of many *unconnected* Wi-Fi APs?

NOTE: When you're on the road, you won't be connected to anything but wide-open access points, and even then, the tablet might be set to ask before connecting, so that's why the answer to the question matters.

[nospam]

has been answered.

[Ragnusen Ultred]

Am Sat, 31 Mar 2018 06:43:45 +0200 (GMT+02:00), schrieb Libor Striz:

You bring up a good point, so please allow me to clarify what we all know, so that it stops coming up, because the question has nothing to do with what we all already know. :)

Let's all agree that everyone knows that Google stores in its online database the location of every BSSID that has been reported to it by misconfigured Android phones. We all know this fact.

We all also know that the Google map, when *on the Internet* can query this online database, to determine the location.

*We all know that.*

Also we all know that if the Google offline map *stores* that information offline, then, of course, Google Maps "can" then just query that previously stored offline information about every BSSID location in the map database.

Again, we all know this (and Retired mentioned it also).

*What we do not know is the answer to this simple question.*

Q: Is Google Maps *storing* (and then querying) this BSSID location information in the offline map database?

[Ragnusen Ultred]

Am Sat, 31 Mar 2018 00:06:19 -0400, schrieb nospam:

Not mine. My S3 doesn't even run Google Framework Services.

If you properly configure an Android phone, it won't report any of the BSSIDs it sees, along with the signal strength and the phones' location.

Of course, many Android phones are misconfigured such that they *do* report every BSSID in sight.

My SSIDs are all set to _nomap...

but the misconfigured Android phones *still* report them, where Google

*says* they remove them from the online database.

Given that we all know that, you're not adding *any* technical value to the conversation (and we already know you can't add any technical value) and worse, even if you could, you're just a child in mentality so you won't ever plan on being helpful.

Nobody disputes that Google *online* databases contain the BSSIDs and location of every access point that Android phones have reported.

What this thread simply asks is whether *that* online geolocation information is *also* in the offline Google Maps database.

[Ragnusen Ultred]

Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 23:58:56 -0400, schrieb nospam:

All you prove in each of your posts is that you're an annoying child, and, since you come from the Apple side, you're a classic annoying child just like most of the Apple posters are.

Why are Apple posters not like normal adults? I don't know why.

All I know is that, for decades, you Apple posters have acted exactly like you do, which is that of an annoying child.

A. You don't know the answer, and, B. You just guess, and, C. You have zero intention to be helpful.

The technical question of what Google Maps is using, since these are each possible together or alone:

1. Is Google using the geolocation of the *connected* WiFi access point?
2. Or is Google using the geolocation of many *unconnected* Wi-Fi APs?

NOTE: When you're on the road, you won't be connected to anything but wide-open access points, and even then, the tablet might be set to ask before connecting, so that's why the answer to the question matters.

[Ragnusen Ultred]

Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 23:58:55 -0400, schrieb nospam:

Despite nospam incessantly making the simplest of technical questions a childish exercise in futility, the simple technical question remains...

1. Is Google using the geolocation of the *connected* WiFi access point?
2. Or is Google using the geolocation of many *unconnected* Wi-Fi APs?

NOTE: When you're on the road, you won't be connected to anything but wide-open access points, and even then, the tablet might be set to ask before connecting, so that's why the answer to the question matters.

[Ragnusen Ultred]

Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 23:58:54 -0400, schrieb nospam:

Does that statement apply to the Wifi-only Apple iPad that has no GPS nor cellular chip?

[Ragnusen Ultred]

Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 20:59:00 -0700, schrieb mike:

We covered, a few years ago, in detail, how Google obtains the GPS location of every access point from poorly configured Android phones, so, it's a given that Google, at least online, has that access point geolocated.

This is also a given, where I might have to explain more detail of how Google obtains the access points to explain that - but - the question has

*nothing* to do with *obtaining* the location from the access point, but from obtaining the location given that the access point is already on an Internet database (which we can query only if we're online) but which we can't query if we don't have cellular data or if we're not connected to the Internet via WiFi.

THANK YOU for *understanding* the underlying technical question as an adult should and would.

Yes. Indeed. The basic question isn't whether Google has the location of every access point (basically, they do - but that location is maintained on Internet servers which the iPad isn't able to access unless the iPad is connected to the Internet.

Unless....

Unless the offline Google Map database *contains* those previously geolocated access points.

Thank you for being one of the few people on this thread who have the adult comprehensive skills to understand the problem set!

I tried this but only accidentally, where my initial observation was that it worked fine in *populated* areas, and sucked in unpopulated areas.

I need to further test that, to be sure, and I need to look at whether it's

*connecting* to the access points it sees, or if it's just seeing the access points but not connecting to them.

Since you are one of the few people on this thread with adult comprehensive skills, you can apprecdiate that the two situations are quite different.

1. If you can *connect* to a wide-open access point, you're 'on' the Internet, and your location can easily be established.
2. If you're not connecting to access points, but if you're just *seeing* that they exist, then the only way Google can track your location is to have *saved* the lookup table in the already-downloaded offline map database.

This thread is just asking which of those two is Google Maps using.

Yes. Indeed.

Well, to be fair, I wasn't sure if Bluetooth was also involved, since bluetooth also has a unique MAC address as do all the WiFi access points.

I know maps very well, in that I've written many tutorials on off road routing with GPS topographical map apps. So I know /all/ the map apps that work best on Android, where, for example, this is my current set of map apps on my Android cellphone.

But this question isn't about GPS or cellular data connections to the Internet.

This question is just how Google Maps gets the location where, as we all seem to agree, it gets it likely from WiFi, but that still leaves two questions to be answered.

1. Is Google using the geolocation of the *connected* WiFi access point?
2. Or is Google using the geolocation of many *unconnected* Wi-Fi APs?

Just to explain how Google "obtains" the geolocation of each access point, I experimented years ago and was successful at tracking a phone simply by knowing two bits of data and guessing at the other data.

At that time (and probably still now) Google had an online database that anyone with a key that google gives for free can access which will tell them a lot of good information which allows you to track someone elses phone if you have certain information.

I can look up the thread, but from memory, you simply set a phone to broadcast as an access point, so now that's one access point, and then you save a known access point (say that of the local library), and then you can just ask the Google database if the two access points are near each other.

Google will tell you the answer, so, that's a rudimentary way to trick the system into telling you if, say, someone you know is at the local library.

Since folks like nospam will act like children and deny facts, to give you more detail, what Google does is two different things.

1. Most Android phones are poorly configured, such that they "spy" on you for Google in that they report to Google all the SSIDs they "see" and the signal strength and the phones' GPS location and the MAC address of all those SSIDs (even if they have _nomap like all of my SSIDs have).
2. Then Google saves all that data, and Google "says" they strip out my SSID (because it says "_nomap") and then Google allows /anyone/ to query that database if they have free key from Google.

If you know certain information, you can query the database, and Google will spit out the location. As I recall, you hand Google just two bits of information, namely two nearby SSIDs and a bogus signal strength, and Google will tell you the location of those two SSIDs (if they're close).

Notice you need two SSIDs (as a mild security measure) before Google will report the location (as I recall).

Anyway, Google Maps won't be constricted to requiring two SSID, if they don't want to be so constricted, so they probably can just ask where the location is of any *one* SSID. (Note: I say SSID but really they use the unique BSSID).

So the only technical question remaining in this thread is this:

1. Is Google using the geolocation of the *connected* WiFi access point?
2. Or is Google using the geolocation of many *unconnected* Wi-Fi APs?

For the second method to work, as you astutely noted, the SSID has to be

*stored* inside the offline Google Map database.

I have been using "dedicated GPS" for as long as anyone, where I started with the ones we put on our roof and then moved to the ones on the dashboard, with an inverter and a laptop plugged in, with the GPS receiver on the RS232 serial port.

Then I moved to the Garmin StreetPilot III and then to about a dozen Garmin nuvi's and Magellens, etc. and then to GPS on the cellphone and tablet.

In fact, this particular cheap Costco $300 tablet is the first mobile device I've had in many years that does *not* have GPS.

Hence the simple technical question of...

1. Is Google using the geolocation of the *connected* WiFi access point?
2. Or is Google using the geolocation of many *unconnected* Wi-Fi APs?

[nospam]

yes yours.

[nospam]

whoosh.

[rbowman]

Short answer is the secured access points are broadcasting a SSID. Assuming you have a WiFi connection to any of them, the database can be queried and the location of each SSID determined.

Just walking down a city street you should be able to see a number of access points even if you can't connect to them. That information is all you need.

afaik, you still need a connection to Google. Many of the services like routing are not done locally. The device sends the request off to a server, not necessarily Google, and gets back JSON (usually) data which it then can use to plot a line on the basemap.

[rbowman]

Any access point that is broadcasting its SSID. I believe you still need a connection to allow your device to query the database on someone's server. Basemaps for an area can be downloaded for local use but I don't know about the SSID position information.