Debug advice Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 stopped refrigerating

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Danny D. wrote:

...
Because he has the emotional maturity of a toddler in the terrible 2s. Just ask DerbyDad03, he had a cow on him for no reason, and I'm sure there are others in this group also.
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On 7/13/2016 1:09 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Yes, it's obvious that you don't see.
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 19:42:21 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Here's the thing. I'm obviously not an engineer nor a tech. I'm just a guy.
I had never looked at the back of a frig in my life before. I ask you guys for help because the frig is a riddle to me. I don't need more riddles though.
I tried cleaning the condenser coils with a flexible brush, but that's basically impossible (to get to the other half).
http://i.cubeupload.com/rYcpn0.jpg
So I cleaned the coils by blowing with an airgun at 100psi or so:
http://i.cubeupload.com/q1fSgx.jpg
That left a trail of dust devils in the kitchen:
http://i.cubeupload.com/Vvbex9.jpg
And then I hooked the hard-start capacitor to refrigerator power:
http://i.cubeupload.com/62T0dG.jpg
Since that didn't help, I tried hooking the hard-start cap to its own separate power:
http://i.cubeupload.com/VsCyzM.jpg
I can plug and unplug at will (letting it rest a half hour between):
http://i.cubeupload.com/Dio9Uz.jpg
It only starts sometimes.
The rest of the time it's just pulling 13.5 Amps and not starting:
http://i.cubeupload.com/Wo2RvQ.jpg
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On 7/13/2016 10:00 PM, Danny D. wrote:

When you run into a problem, you can either do things differently, or force harder, using the technique which has failed up to that point.
I offered you (repeatedly) a chance to do differently, and you ignored me repeatedly. This post is an example of trying to force your failing techniques even harder, and trying to force me to participate with your failings. I'll have you know, that I viewed NONE of the links, and barely read your text.
By way of references, I've been working on domstic refrigerators for over 10 years. I'm fairly sure that if you'd done what I said, it would have been fixed several days ago. I'm also fairly sure I know why your compressor keeps going off.
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On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 08:44:27 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'm not sure why the repeatedly cryptic riddles, but I don't understand them. I did *every* single thing that people, including you suggested.
I answered *every* single question that people, including you, asked.
The compressor only went on twice out of a few dozen tries, after the hard-start cap.
Either the hard-start cap 'went bad', or something else is wrong.
I left no stone unturned that was suggested and no question unanswered that was asked. Not one.
So you can remain cryptic with riddles or you can ask a simple question or suggest a test - but the cryptic riddles you're repeating are not useful in and of themselves, except to amuse you but they don't amuse me.
I do realize I'm asking you for help, but I'm asking you to stop with the riddles becuase I don't understand the puzzles you are purposefully proposing.
If you *really* wanted me to answer a question, you'd simply ask it instead of providing riddle (after riddle after riddle).
I mean, how hard can your question be? I answered *EVERYTHING* asked of me. I tried *EVERYTHING* suggested.
I can't be any more blunt (and I don't do riddles).
No more riddles please. Just straight talk. 1. What is your question? 2. What is your suggestion?
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On Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 2:02:00 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:

Stormin just likes being a jerk sometimes. Normally I wouldn't point it out, but since he attacked me out of the blue, in another thread the other day for no reason, what the hell, might as well return the favor.

Agree. Sounds reasonable to me. And I'm taking bets. Stormin said that if you listened to him a week ago, you'd have fixed it by now. I'm betting that whatever he has to say ain't gonna fix it, he probably knows that, and that's why he's playing games.
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On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Nope. And, I asked twice.
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On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

It's under this header, and also under subject line of "Debug advice, and a question for Danny D".
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On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 20:28:41 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

As you know, I don't read every thread here. I just read the threads that I author.
And I respond to EVERY valid question and point. You know this because I have done this for years.
I just went (again) through each of the two dozen posts you made in this thread, and I don't see any suggestion that I didn't already do on my own, nor any question that is unanswered.
Since I prove everything I say, below are the two dozen posts from you in this thread.
a. Where is a suggestion that I didn't try? b. Where is there a question I didn't answer? =====================================================================On 7/8/2016 7:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay on the compressor. This is considered "sealed system". If you have the owners manual, see how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably five years, so you're out of warranty.
If it's out of warranty, are you any good with electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll continue the discussion. =====================================================================On 7/8/2016 8:31 PM, tom wrote:

You are so, so right. The compressor will eventually over heat and might burn out.
Thank you, well said. =====================================================================On 7/8/2016 8:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:

CY: Glad to be some help. Any time (well, figuratively speaking).

CY: The big black thing in the back is a compressor.

CY: No, the motor and compressor are inside. The start relay (and some have a relay and a capacitor) outside the sealed unit. The relay and cap should never contact refrigerant. That said, the company probably considers the relay and cap to be part of the sealed system.

CY: Yes. Though, it's often not cost effective. Requires refrigerant pump, brazing, electrical, and more than that. Takes about three hours.

CY: The black sealed unit contains electric windings for the motor. The unit keeps trying to start the compressor. Amp draw, turns the electric watts into heat.

CY: Yes, that combination amp and temp safety switch is what gives you the repeated hum click.

CY: When the refrig is running, warm. They should NEVER get cold.

CY: The compressor has two windings. Start, and run. The relay supplies power to the start winding, and then later power to the run winding.

CY: I'm guessing it will do exactly the same hum click routine. It's late on the east coast, I'm going to bed. =====================================================================On 7/8/2016 8:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:

As a Kenmore, you may be able to buy OEM parts, but if it were my unit, I'd use a universal hard start kit. Seeing as how I carry them in my vehicle and use the universal kits at work. =====================================================================On 7/8/2016 9:26 PM, Danny D. wrote:

To keep these parts from coming off.
Pull straight out from compressor. Might need to pry with slotted screw driver. Wiggle them back and forth while pulling. =====================================================================On 7/8/2016 10:40 PM, Danny D. wrote:

No. Sorry, but that takes a lot of skills that the average HO does not have. =====================================================================On 7/9/2016 1:27 AM, Danny D. wrote:

d) the suggestion Stormy gave yesterday.
I've never tested a relay. Just replace, and see if the unit comes back to life.
You may also answer my question, if you wish. The one I asked yesterday. =====================================================================On 7/9/2016 12:29 PM, Danny D. wrote:

And, won't prevent you from being a Mormon. =====================================================================On 7/9/2016 12:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:

CY: Yes, many Italians are Mormons.

CY: She'll love it!

CY: Not since 1890. =====================================================================On 7/9/2016 12:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Yes. I can. Totally what I diagnosed yesterday. =====================================================================On 7/9/2016 6:50 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Danny, are my posts making it through your server? =====================================================================On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Danny, are my posts making it to you, through your server? You've not answered my question. And you're going through a lot of bother which isn't really needed.
But, did you ever do any thing simple?
I leave you to your complications. =====================================================================On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Danny, are my posts making it to you, through your server? You've not answered my question. And you're going through a lot of bother which isn't really needed. But, did you ever do any thing simple? I leave you to your complications. =====================================================================On 7/12/2016 3:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Pump out all the refrigerant. Saw the top off the compressor. After the inspection, weld the compressor using a gas tight "bead" of weld. Replace the refrigerant.
No problem for you, right? =====================================================================On 7/12/2016 5:26 PM, tom wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago, and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored my hints and reminders.
=====================================================================On 7/12/2016 7:08 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Think I remember at least one reminder. Well, moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many directions, there's no contacting him, now. =====================================================================On 7/12/2016 10:57 PM, Danny D. wrote:

You never answered my question, and I never made any suggestions what to do. Other than suggesting you answer my question so we can move on. =====================================================================On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

"not found" is what the web page says. =====================================================================On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I added a g to the end of the URL, and got a picture. I can't comment on that, until you answer my question. =====================================================================On 7/12/2016 11:21 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Coincidence. I'm on the east coast, and spend a bit of time on the computer in the evenings.
What question? I only asked twice. =====================================================================On 7/13/2016 12:56 AM, Danny D. wrote:

If you'd done what I said, and played along, this could have been fixed last week. Hope you are enjoying your self.
=====================================================================On 7/13/2016 1:09 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Yes, it's obvious that you don't see. =====================================================================On 7/13/2016 10:00 PM, Danny D. wrote:

When you run into a problem, you can either do things differently, or force harder, using the technique which has failed up to that point.
I offered you (repeatedly) a chance to do differently, and you ignored me repeatedly. This post is an example of trying to force your failing techniques even harder, and trying to force me to participate with your failings. I'll have you know, that I viewed NONE of the links, and barely read your text.
By way of references, I've been working on domstic refrigerators for over 10 years. I'm fairly sure that if you'd done what I said, it would have been fixed several days ago. I'm also fairly sure I know why your compressor keeps going off. =====================================================================On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Nope. And, I asked twice. =====================================================================On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

It's under this header, and also under subject line of "Debug advice, and a question for Danny D". =====================================================================On 7/13/2016 2:02 AM, Danny D. wrote:

When you go back and answer my question, I'll consider answer yours. ==========================================================================================================================================
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On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Since you appear to think I know all about your posting style, I must presume that you there fore know all about mine. I like a good trim text job. Leave enough text so we know the question that goes with the reply. But, sending a dozen or so quoted replies back through the list is really bad manners.
With your simple answer to my simple question, please do a reasonable text trim. Thank you.
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On 7/13/2016 1:09 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Just tell them if they had a penis, they could actually be useful and help.
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 12:50:44 -0700, Oren wrote:

You know me better'n my mother does!
:)
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On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 12:56:46 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:

From your new testing, it would seem that you've confirmed what you already thought. Something is wrong with either the compressor or a restriction in the lines. More likely it's a bad compressor, so it's harder to start than it should be. The hard start kit gave it the additional kick it needed to get going, but ultimately it failed anyway because after some time it overloads and trips.
That is assuming the hardstart kit has the correct cap size for the motor.
Have you checked that the fan inside the fridge is working to move the cold air? If the fan is shot or blocked, it will ice up and the compressor will probably have an increased load on it that could cause trouble, resulting in it shutting down.
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 05:48:41 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

Thanks for that suggestion.
All
All I know, at this point, is that half the time the compressor starts and half the time it won't start, even with the hard-start cap installed.

It sure is!

That seems to be the case. This morning, after sitting overnight, it did NOT start with the hard start cap, and pulled 13.5 Amps.
http://i.cubeupload.com/Wo2RvQ.jpg

Let's hope that the cap is just too small for the motor horsepower.
Unfortunately, the motor doesn't say the horsepower (which is odd for a motor but this is a motor/compressor combo):
http://i.cubeupload.com/34bCaq.jpg
Given it takes about 3 amps of current when running, googling, I find the formumla for horsepower (for single phase?) to be:     (Volts x Amps x 1.732 x Eff x PF)/746
I assume an efficiency of, oh, I don't know, maybe 0.65?
I don't really understand power factor for a single-phase motor: http://ecmweb.com/content/power-factor-correction-single-induction-motors
So I will just assume a power factor of 1. 120volts x 3amps x 1.732 x 0.65efficiency x 1 power factor)/746
I think that makes it about 1/2 HP motor, but, I also think it pulled 1.5 amps before, so that makes it really about 1/4 horsepower (I think).
So, I'll split the difference (not knowing any better yet), and call it between 1/3 and 1/4 horsepower, which means it is the correct sized capacitor.
Going back to the package, hmmm... it seems to be for that size:
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

The fan "inside" the frig? There's a fan inside the frig?
I opened the frig, and didn't hear or see any fan or feel air movement, but, the freezer seems to have a fan, which seems to be working. I don't know *where* that freezer fan is, but it's near the top (I think) behind the bulkhead somewhere, I think. It seems to be working from sound alone.
Is there another fan I'm missing?
Even so, the compressor won't start now. It started once out of about 10 tries, and it went off only because the wife wanted the wires cleaned up (snaking across the kitchen floor) and I accidentally unplugged it.
http://i.cubeupload.com/Dio9Uz.jpg
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On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 1:54:33 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:

I think the typical modern fridge relies on a fan to move cold air around within the fridge or from the freezer section to the fridge. If the fan doesn't work, you'd get super cold coils and IDK what effect that has on the compressor continuing to run or quitting. But if you have a warm fridge that has been sitting there for hours and it won't start, then clearly a bad fan or airflow isn't the problem.

This seems to be different than what you reported before. I thought before you said it started, ran for some number of minutes, started to get cold, then it quit. Starting, then quitting later could probably be from any number of compressor failures. For example, if a winding is partially bad, it could be harder to start, then once started, fail later when the winding gets hotter and maybe shorts out more. Or maybe something mechanical. Any case, it doesn't sound good.
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 13:17:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

You are completely correct.
The resistance of the windings checks out as expected, so, electrically I don't see any issue based on resistance testing anyway; however, current when running is 3amps, and I had expected, from youtube videos, about half that.
As for the different stories, yesterday, it started with the hard-start cap. I then unplugged to show the wife, and it wouldn't start a second time. But then I let it rest for an hour and it started right up. I thought I had the problem licked.
The compressor ran for a while and was definitely getting cold inside. The output tube was very hot (almost burned me) and the input tube was warm.
But then it started kicking off, and wouldn't start. So I unplugged it and let it sit overnight.
This morning, it started right up when I plugged it in. But I accidentally disconnected it after just a couple of minutes.
Basically it won't start since. I don't know what else to check or do.
I guess I could get a *bigger* hard-start cap. Or, maybe the hard-start cap is busted.
Dunno. That's where I am and why I ask.
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On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:35:48 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

You mean this? http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jp
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On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

"not found" is what the web page says.
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On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I added a g to the end of the URL, and got a picture. I can't comment on that, until you answer my question.
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On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 22:53:09 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Ooops. Mea culpa. Sorry about that missing "g".
It should have been:
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg
Ummmmm... what question?
But I have a question for you. How do you respond so quickly?
I have to sit down at the computer to even see a message, so, I don't see them in real time. Do you have something that goes to your phone?
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