I'm going the other way. I'm looking at a finish or detail sander.
Hmm, choices. So many choices! What are your thoughts on the DTS400?
Thank you for spending the time to educate me! I'll probably read your lesson a few dozen more times. ;-)
I would get one in a heartbeat if I was younger. Still wood (Freudian slip) if I saw one used at a good price. But for now it'll be either a router or chisels or both.
or my biscuit cutter.
To me it is more than intriguing when they drill, slice and dice, and swing the bit all at once. My first up close view reminded me of the knives in the casket top or was it a chest top of an Edgar A. Poe story.
I'm not going to try to persuade you to get the Domino if you can't wrap your head around the price yet. Notice I said yet. LOL At a certain point Festool prices no longer seemed to be a real deterrent for me. You are getting what you pay for a majority of the time and top quality. The thing that made me think and rethink buying the Domino was if I would/could justify the expense. As it turns out I use it on "every" piece I build. I have come up with unique ways to use it other than what you might think too. If you are into about woodworking and it is not a faze in your life you most likely will use the Domino on every thing you build.
On that drawing I sent you for the night stands. The drawings don't show it but there are Domino floating tenons in every FF joint. That includes the back FFs lap joints. All totaled so far on these night stands there are 40 mortises and floating tenons. Now think about cutting 40 precise mortises with a bench top mortiser. I'm not sure I cut 40 mortises with my mortiser total. And FWIW the mortiser chisels have to be kept sharp, and from the factory sharp is not sharp enough. There is a lot of friction on those chisels and you want a mirror surface on the outside surfaces. And then the smaller bits break easily and those are special bits.
I would advise using jigs and a router over purchasing a bench top mortiser. Mortisers are a lot like band saws. You have to buy a good one to get good results. Cheap does not get you there.
That you are. LOL The To 125 is not going in that direction. although I have no doubt that you would use it a lot if you bought one. But the Rotex IMHO is NOT a one size fits all.
I have not used a DTS400 however I think it is essentially the same as the RTS400. They both use the same size paper, total length and total width but the DTS has the "iron" shaped pad so it actually has less paper on the surface than the RTS, sanding will be a bit slower. I'm not sure how much better the tapered point will be at getting into corners than the square corner of the RTS unless you are going into acute angled corners. Though with the rounded sides on the pad and paper, sanding the bottom of a bucket might be easier done with the DTS over the RTS. I don't often run into that at all.
Swingman IIRC owns the DTS400 so he might have a thing or two to mention about that sander.
As far as the *TS400 sanders go they are good finish sanders. They are a little smaller than some finish sanders but do a great job. Again this sander used with a vac compared to and just coming off of the PC SpeedBloc finish sander 7~8 years ago I thought I had made a bad choice. The SpeedBloc with NO dust control and raised a pile of dust quickly and did a great job. The Festool RTS400 left no dust and as a result the red colored Rubin paper stayed red with very little dust sticking to the paper. That was discerning because you saw no evidence of how much work it was doing. I'm sure the DTS400 has the same effect. So I would say that you will certainly, with dust collection, need to change your methods of determining progress a little. You are going to have to feel the surface with your hand to judge progress and you will need to compare the sharpness of the used paper to a new sheet to judge when to change the paper out. That said when the paper stays clean it lasts longer too.
I would not consider either of these sanders as detail sanders however the DTS might offer some degree of detail sanding with its pointed end.
When I think of detail sanders I think of those that offer the profile inserts for sanding round overs or coves. PC used to offer a terrible detail sander. Many of us probably regretted buying that one, I know I did. The Fein Multimaster offers detail sanding profiles.
Then there is the baby Rotex. It offers a much smaller 3.5" diameter pad and operates like the bigger Rotex sanders plus a change out for a triangle pad and paper for tight spots. I would want to try that one out before pulling the trigger on that one.
And finally there is the LS130 that offers multiple profile detail sanding. IMHO this is the true detail sander and IIRC uses the same paper as the RTS400 for regular finish sanding. IIRC also this sander has a linear action vs. orbital so you are going to have to really pay attention to the drain direction. Both this sander and the smaller RO90 Rotex are north of $400. The RTS and DTS 400 sanders are about $250 each.
Glad to share. You are welcome.
Correction, 40 floating tenons and 56 mortises.
In thinking about my cabinet doors, Freud makes a nice router set that makes a tenon on the rails, when done properly, but the stile still requires a way of making a mortise. And as far as ff's go and reading your posts it just seems like the domino is the way to go and the hardwood tenon is far superior to the soft biscuit. So naturally I drooled at the prospect of a domino, but at this point I also have enough to learn and develop the proper skills that will keep be busy for a while, and when the time comes then necessity will motivate the move to domino's, or a suitable clone.
On my cabinet/island I am putting in a 4 drawer bank, using your idea's for the front end of the drawers and at the back end using a vertical riser with notch's cut out to put the back end of the rail that the drawer slide is mounted too. In design it looks fine. Using a dado joint there could be useful as a "floating joint" to reduce any stress.
Believe me I do not take your words lightly, regarding the Domino. I appreciate your insight into all aspects of ww'ing.
On 2/8/2016 1:11 PM, OFWW wrote: Snip
If I understand what you are talking about,,,,, I would strongly advise against that set up. Those sets do a good job but you can do much better with a dado set. Unless!!!! you are looking at a cope and stick set of bits. The problem with the tennon set/bit is that it makes a fixed thickness tenon. Your panel probably will not fit properly in the groves that the tenon will fit onto. Most likely the panel will be loose.
I cut a grove in my stiles and rails centered to accept the exact width of the panel or plywood panel that I will be using. Cut a grove slightly off center on the edge of a scrap. Flip the piece end for end and cut again. This method will perfectly center the groove. Sneak up on the fence setting until you have that groove perfect. I cut that groove 1/2" deep
Next with a stacked dado set set the blade to cut 1/2" wide or a little wider and use a sacrificial fence to partially bury the blade and to index how long the tenon will be cut repeatedly. Cut both ends of the rails on both sides and both ends to form a tenon to perfectly match the width of the grooves on the rails and stiles.
You get this.
And as far as ff's go and reading
It is and the 5mm thick tenons are about 3/4" wide so the you don't have to worry about the biscuit slot being too wide for the end of a rail.
So naturally I
Understood.
A few of us have been down this road many times. ;~)
Here is a short video with the extended tenon option for cabinet doors.
Which requires a mortise in the stiles. Our plan was to make cathedral style doors, and in the corner upper cabinet doors to use glass and have a stile and rails on the face of the glass of the two doors. The rest of the doors I would rather not have raised panels, but flush or inset, where you can see a small grove on the back of the panel where you can see part of the normal tenon. I hope I am clear enough on that. I also like the hidden tenon option, but if it is not seen some people might think the joint was just a box joint.
Would you mind post a picture of the back of your night stand to see? Funny, but without seeing it, the project is not completed in my minds eye. :)
Which would make my life considerably easier. I realize that with the doors comes the hinge options and once my drawings are completed the I was going to focus on that part of it before I actually start building the cases. I've been considering the options, and I know that where I have drawers behind doors that I need to be sure they swing wide enough open.
Funny, In the HVAC trader there are seven other trades that we have to be fluent in. All the skill sets, and then interactions with carpenters and the like. So I know I can do most any trade if needed, but getting involved with wood working and its various options and their integrations is a new animal to me. Hanging the cabinets should be easy enough as I did that for our control jobs, but in this case I am the one building the cabinets and responsible for their continued usage.
Kudos' to all you guys, especially you and Karl, and others with their niche's.
Yes, but then there are finishers, and the real finishers. Which takes the product to a whole nut her level.
Lousy spell checker in Forte' and I do mean lousy! " 'nuther"
This is an excellent path to take. At this point, you may not have found w hat you really like to do in regards to woodworking. There are so many ave nues to explore; When I started our framing apartments and houses, I really liked that. Then I went to work for a different company that taught me th eir method of building store fixtures and cabinets. This was a great way t o learn and a great way to learn methods to build bomb proof cabinets with a minimum of tools. I worked with a furniture maker for a while, and start ed making faux antiques when they were really in fashion. That got me inte rested in finishing, which led me into making boxes - jewelry, humidors, et c. so I could do finer woodwork. Then about 20 years ago, I got a midi lat he, and didn't do anything but turn (except as required at work) for a few years. Wood turning got me interested in recreational wood work again.
My point is that unless you know which direction you are going, save your m oney on your tools and work on learning the skills in craft area you are in terested in as well as learning the hand/motor skills to perform them. I h ave tried to help a lot of folks over the years that are interested in wood working, and many seem to think that better tools will instantly make you h ave better capabilities and skills. Not so.
Personally, I think you should buy good tools, tools that don't break the b ank so you can get to work immediately doing your projects. Bad tools of c heaply made tools can be actual punishment, so buy the best you can afford. They can cause you to go backwards for all kinds of reasons. They may no t do the job well, they may do the job but it doesn't give satisfactory ret urn on the time spent, or they may not have the level of repeatability that allows you to depend on an end result when using it. On the other hand, L eon stands alone in all of my compadres that own or have access to the Domi no that use it. None of them use it to its capabilities, and few have ever used it on more than one or two projects.
Leon understands and designs around that tool and it has paid for itself as he uses it many times over. Even to build your skills and to understand u sage, application snd skills needed, you could probably get by with differe nt kinds of joinery. Remember, we didn't have problems with things falling apart when we used dowels, splines, loose bead, and even biscuits. Sure, the Domino is superior to all of those in speed and performance, but betwee n homemade jigs and inexpensive guides and goodies available on the net you can learn a great deal about making joints.
I always tell people to learn what they like to do first. Build your tool collection as your experience grows and you won't overspend . On the other hand, don't spend so much on machines that you can't afford wood or any other machines!
Smart!
Robert
Well said Robert!
OK. That will be fine, I was thinking of a simpler set.
There now, I have not attached the backs yet but they will fit in the rabbet recess.
Typically with Euro style hinges you get enough clearance from the door but you need to consider how much room the actual hinge takes up if it is not mounted on the face of the face frame.
Welcome to my world. ;~)
Thanks, Makes me feel a bunch better, for now.
Shame on me, I never noticed the rabbet faces, Now the picture is complete in my mind. Very nice.
I appreciate all your words of wisdom. Anyone reading it should pay attention. There has been a few times when I bought tools for my normal trade and shouldn't have, but it seemed like a good option at the time.
I am in an unusual situation, and maybe not so unusual. I always wanted to do wood working since I was a kid. Helped my dad pound nails when I was in the third grade and saw wood with a handsaw, although it was for a bldg. Made myself a tree fort out of some hardwood flooring my dad had in a shed. As I recall he was not very happy about that one.
Over the years I bought a some of the major tools for woodworking but never had the time to do it some tools were never turned on in forty years. Well now they are being turned on, being used. Little by little. My super duper router bit set, which I hung onto for dear life now turns out to be crap, they had no bearings, just bushings, no carbide, just High speed steel, which at the time was about all there was to buy. Only one or two bits where used and it ends up as money down the drain, but I am not sorry I bought them as I had good intentions.
In any event, I need to learn on what I have, like you say, and let the project needs drive the updating on tools. I have also been buying some good books on Joints and I totally love the feeling of good hand tools. My power tools are aligned, lubed, and in good shape. I don't know if I will be able to reach the skill levels of Karl, Leon, Yourself and others here, but it won't be from lack of trying and doing.
Thanks again for your post!
Made many hundreds of cabinet doors down through they years. Just some observations from that experience:
Starting with basics, the single most important ingredient in making _serviceable_ doors is to _religiously_ insist on straight grained, perfectly flat, milled and dimensioned stock ... no exceptions.
You will also need the skill, experience, and ability to read the various woods and their grain well enough to predict what that stock will do in the future. In short, bowed, warped and twisted material, now or in the future, is not conducive to making serviceable doors that will last.
Unless you have the tools and practical expertise to chose and mill your stock, you will most assuredly end up buying much more S4S stock than you need, with the result that much will end up as waste; and your cost/benefit will ratio suffer ... and that is a much more likely occurrence with a DIY door project.
Despite the nice bit advertisements, home shop router setups are rarely sturdy, accurate and repeatable enough to cut a full set of doors without repeated setups, and trial and error tweaks, meaning more wasted material, with often undesirable end results.
YMMV, but I have tried, and failed more times before I got the results I truly wanted.
I still make a fair number of doors, but I only do those that I can do cost effectively, have the tools and experience to make, and that I can reasonably expect will stand the test of time.
The majority of doors I make these days are of the flat panel style, made with stub tenon joinery, on the table saw.
The same methodology Leon explained in an earlier post. We both do many of our doors that way for a reason ... we try to do what we have the expertise, material, and tools to reasonably expect serviceable results.
Although nothing ventured, nothing gained ... be aware that it will take a lot more than a set of advertised router bits to obtain the advertised results, guaranteed.
Might want to round up all aspects of what it takes to make a few stub tenon doors, and gain some experience in making a few serviceable doors before becoming more ambitious in that regard.
Another option, and one I use quite often these days myself.
I can almost guarantee there is a local cabinet shop who specialize in cabinet doors, and therefore has the material, the tools, and the experience to make doors much more inexpensively than you, or I.
Although though it possible to do it yourself, there is no shame, and prudence often dictates finishing up a well made set of cabinetry, carefully crafted in a particular style, with a professionally made set of doors, equally carefully crafted in that style.
There are so many door/drawer front makers on the internet now, too. However, unless someone could recommend a great one, I would hesitate buying doors from them except possibly for primed, paint grade doors.
A friend of mine bought replacement doors from one of these internet sites and it was embarrassing to be in the room when I saw them. They were so proud of their "new" kitchen and the bargain they got.
The doors looked like they came from the same place that sells those leftover boxes of hardwood flooring. None of the grain matched, there were sapwood and heartwood rails and stiles mixed so much that they looked like different species of wood on the same door. Huge gaps in the joinery-- some with out-of-square cuts. Orange-peeled finish on the fronts of some of the doors. I just had to stand there and smile and nod my head with a sick feeling in my gut.
I would to find a reputable on-line source for doors and fronts because all the cabinet shops around here are either out of business or don't sell to other installers.
Thanks... but rereading it, it could have been more clear. That's what hap pens when you are typing and answering the phone!
We have all bought tools we didn't need to begin with, or no longer need. We have all bought tools that we simply "want". (Nothing wrong with that!) It is a lovely feeling to pick up a tool and think "man, I really like usi ng that XXX", and it makes you smile when you use it.
NOT money down the drain. If for no other reason, they guilted you into us ing them so you could get going with your router! I have a of router bits for different uses, and over the years (starting in 1975) have used my shar e of steel bits. Nothing wrong with them. They don't hold an edge as well , and they don't have all the fancy profiles we have come to expect, but th ey work fine. I used to buy SEARS router bits (made by Stanley) back in th e 70s, and we would use them a lot and just figured that we would be doing a little more cleanup sanding at the end of the bit's life. Don't know if anyone here has been doing this long enough to remember this, but working i n the shop we used to take the blade off the table saw every night and put it in a tray of kerosene. When we were doing dadoes, rabbets and edging pr ofiles (all we used a router for) we would drop the bits in the tray as wel l. By morning, we could take a toothbrush and clean off all the resin and glue buildup easily. Clean bits and blades last surprisingly well!
You know, at the encouragement of some of my older buddies, I have consider ed putting together a video or some sort of instruction on how we used to b uild cabinets without a shop or even a lot of tools. A router, a good circu lar saw, a drill, pipe clamps and a miter saw were all we used, and we turn ed out good cabinets, completely serviceable and some even pretty!
At this point, if I were you, I would be enjoying the ride. I started like you by nailing old pieces of scrap together, taking pieces of this or that out of the trash to make things using my Dad's forbidden tools when he was n't around. For years, I was totally enthralled with wood working and took shop classes and worked on some of the neighbor's projects. The very wors t and at the same time best thing to happen was for me to do woodworking pr ofessionally, full time as a trade. Eventually, you get tired of anything, and then when you have to do it to pay your bills, it is work. No longer fun.
I wouldn't give that another thought for a couple of reasons. First, if YO U enjoy it and you feel like things are going well, to hell with everyone e lse! I know Karl and Leon both well enough to know that without being the s lightest bit patronizing, they feel the same way.
You may never be as good, but on the other hand, you might be better! You might never be as good because you cannot have the same opportunity to do t he same task over and over until you get it right (and in turn finally get paid) for doing a certain task. When I bid the woodworking part of a job t hat I will be doing as a contractor, I bid it to be accomplished in the mos t expeditious manner, with the best results (a result I can put my name on) , never with a thought of any kind of enjoyment. I have little love for wo odworking anymore. So be thankful that you don't have the practice it take s to excel.
On the other hand, I have seen some really good, a few things excellent fro m hobbyists. The difference? The good craftsmen take the time to get thei r projects as perfect as they can, and learn more every time they make some thing. They have a passion (that 40+ years of doing something burns out)to learn, enjoy and try new things. Every little detail has been addressed w ith consideration and the executed to the best of their abilities. I have actually seen hobby/project guys that turn out work better than "profession als". The big difference I have observed is that they still love what they are doing enough to take the time to get it right. They might easily take 5 times longer than a "pro" to do the same task, but in the end they get a great result.
It was just meant to be a bit of encouragement. Too many times I have seen hobby guys sit inert because they didn't have this or that tool. Hang aro und here and post your questions or remarks, and ask for help when you need it. You won't find a better resource on the 'net for advice than here. S till quite a few folks that hang out here that have a huge amount of experi ence.
Robert
And just to sum up a lot of these conversations, quality is always in style.
A well built plain door is more impressive to look at than a fancy door that is of less quality.
When it comes to doors and drawer fronts, I would make them before I'd buy them sight unseen.
Have never had a problem finding/buying doors from a shop specializing in cabinet doors, but that might be a regional thing. Around here it's a specialized business, and they're more than happy to get yours.
Doubt if he ships, because Robert personally measures up himself, but he can only say no:
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