Thanks for the link and the info. I saved it for future use.
When reading the recommendations I saw the comments on Zinnso (SP)
primer, and the one that sanded like bubble gum. I called them on that
product because it never "set up" after two weeks it was still tacky
and the paint would just roll when sanded. Supposedly the tackiness
was to allow the top coats to bond much better, and they did have
another sealer, primer to use, somewhere in my notes I should still
have their recommendations on how to get the primer off, and use the
other version. I was fit to be tied, lost a month on that project.
On Monday, February 8, 2016 at 1:11:13 PM UTC-6, OFWW wrote:
This is an excellent path to take. At this point, you may not have found w
hat you really like to do in regards to woodworking. There are so many ave
nues to explore; When I started our framing apartments and houses, I really
liked that. Then I went to work for a different company that taught me th
eir method of building store fixtures and cabinets. This was a great way t
o learn and a great way to learn methods to build bomb proof cabinets with
a minimum of tools. I worked with a furniture maker for a while, and start
ed making faux antiques when they were really in fashion. That got me inte
rested in finishing, which led me into making boxes - jewelry, humidors, et
c. so I could do finer woodwork. Then about 20 years ago, I got a midi lat
he, and didn't do anything but turn (except as required at work) for a few
years. Wood turning got me interested in recreational wood work again.
My point is that unless you know which direction you are going, save your m
oney on your tools and work on learning the skills in craft area you are in
terested in as well as learning the hand/motor skills to perform them. I h
ave tried to help a lot of folks over the years that are interested in wood
working, and many seem to think that better tools will instantly make you h
ave better capabilities and skills. Not so.
Personally, I think you should buy good tools, tools that don't break the b
ank so you can get to work immediately doing your projects. Bad tools of c
heaply made tools can be actual punishment, so buy the best you can afford.
They can cause you to go backwards for all kinds of reasons. They may no
t do the job well, they may do the job but it doesn't give satisfactory ret
urn on the time spent, or they may not have the level of repeatability that
allows you to depend on an end result when using it. On the other hand, L
eon stands alone in all of my compadres that own or have access to the Domi
no that use it. None of them use it to its capabilities, and few have ever
used it on more than one or two projects.
Leon understands and designs around that tool and it has paid for itself as
he uses it many times over. Even to build your skills and to understand u
sage, application snd skills needed, you could probably get by with differe
nt kinds of joinery. Remember, we didn't have problems with things falling
apart when we used dowels, splines, loose bead, and even biscuits. Sure,
the Domino is superior to all of those in speed and performance, but betwee
n homemade jigs and inexpensive guides and goodies available on the net you
can learn a great deal about making joints.
I always tell people to learn what they like to do first.
Build your tool collection as your experience grows and you won't overspend
. On the other hand, don't spend so much on machines that you can't afford
wood or any other machines!
On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 16:44:09 -0800 (PST), " firstname.lastname@example.org"
I appreciate all your words of wisdom. Anyone reading it should pay
attention. There has been a few times when I bought tools for my
normal trade and shouldn't have, but it seemed like a good option at
I am in an unusual situation, and maybe not so unusual. I always
wanted to do wood working since I was a kid. Helped my dad pound nails
when I was in the third grade and saw wood with a handsaw, although it
was for a bldg. Made myself a tree fort out of some hardwood flooring
my dad had in a shed. As I recall he was not very happy about that
Over the years I bought a some of the major tools for woodworking but
never had the time to do it some tools were never turned on in forty
years. Well now they are being turned on, being used. Little by
little. My super duper router bit set, which I hung onto for dear life
now turns out to be crap, they had no bearings, just bushings, no
carbide, just High speed steel, which at the time was about all there
was to buy. Only one or two bits where used and it ends up as money
down the drain, but I am not sorry I bought them as I had good
In any event, I need to learn on what I have, like you say, and let
the project needs drive the updating on tools. I have also been buying
some good books on Joints and I totally love the feeling of good hand
tools. My power tools are aligned, lubed, and in good shape. I don't
know if I will be able to reach the skill levels of Karl, Leon,
Yourself and others here, but it won't be from lack of trying and
Thanks again for your post!
On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 at 3:00:23 AM UTC-6, OFWW wrote:
Thanks... but rereading it, it could have been more clear. That's what hap
pens when you are typing and answering the phone!
We have all bought tools we didn't need to begin with, or no longer need.
We have all bought tools that we simply "want". (Nothing wrong with that!)
It is a lovely feeling to pick up a tool and think "man, I really like usi
ng that XXX", and it makes you smile when you use it.
NOT money down the drain. If for no other reason, they guilted you into us
ing them so you could get going with your router! I have a of router bits
for different uses, and over the years (starting in 1975) have used my shar
e of steel bits. Nothing wrong with them. They don't hold an edge as well
, and they don't have all the fancy profiles we have come to expect, but th
ey work fine. I used to buy SEARS router bits (made by Stanley) back in th
e 70s, and we would use them a lot and just figured that we would be doing
a little more cleanup sanding at the end of the bit's life. Don't know if
anyone here has been doing this long enough to remember this, but working i
n the shop we used to take the blade off the table saw every night and put
it in a tray of kerosene. When we were doing dadoes, rabbets and edging pr
ofiles (all we used a router for) we would drop the bits in the tray as wel
l. By morning, we could take a toothbrush and clean off all the resin and
glue buildup easily. Clean bits and blades last surprisingly well!
You know, at the encouragement of some of my older buddies, I have consider
ed putting together a video or some sort of instruction on how we used to b
uild cabinets without a shop or even a lot of tools. A router, a good circu
lar saw, a drill, pipe clamps and a miter saw were all we used, and we turn
ed out good cabinets, completely serviceable and some even pretty!
At this point, if I were you, I would be enjoying the ride. I started like
you by nailing old pieces of scrap together, taking pieces of this or that
out of the trash to make things using my Dad's forbidden tools when he was
n't around. For years, I was totally enthralled with wood working and took
shop classes and worked on some of the neighbor's projects. The very wors
t and at the same time best thing to happen was for me to do woodworking pr
ofessionally, full time as a trade. Eventually, you get tired of anything,
and then when you have to do it to pay your bills, it is work. No longer
I wouldn't give that another thought for a couple of reasons. First, if YO
U enjoy it and you feel like things are going well, to hell with everyone e
lse! I know Karl and Leon both well enough to know that without being the s
lightest bit patronizing, they feel the same way.
You may never be as good, but on the other hand, you might be better! You
might never be as good because you cannot have the same opportunity to do t
he same task over and over until you get it right (and in turn finally get
paid) for doing a certain task. When I bid the woodworking part of a job t
hat I will be doing as a contractor, I bid it to be accomplished in the mos
t expeditious manner, with the best results (a result I can put my name on)
, never with a thought of any kind of enjoyment. I have little love for wo
odworking anymore. So be thankful that you don't have the practice it take
s to excel.
On the other hand, I have seen some really good, a few things excellent fro
m hobbyists. The difference? The good craftsmen take the time to get thei
r projects as perfect as they can, and learn more every time they make some
thing. They have a passion (that 40+ years of doing something burns out)to
learn, enjoy and try new things. Every little detail has been addressed w
ith consideration and the executed to the best of their abilities. I have
actually seen hobby/project guys that turn out work better than "profession
als". The big difference I have observed is that they still love what they
are doing enough to take the time to get it right. They might easily take
5 times longer than a "pro" to do the same task, but in the end they get a
It was just meant to be a bit of encouragement. Too many times I have seen
hobby guys sit inert because they didn't have this or that tool. Hang aro
und here and post your questions or remarks, and ask for help when you need
it. You won't find a better resource on the 'net for advice than here. S
till quite a few folks that hang out here that have a huge amount of experi
Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're
using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet
sides, a jig is your friend.
Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately
customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face
frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide
the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from
cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space
below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing
(scroll right for all four photos)
When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do
the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time.
You know me, I'm generally one to make my own jigs. But Rockler has a
couple drawer slide mounting jigs that are pretty darn cool. I may get
the big blue one next time it's one sale.
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
That $tyle of jig i$ $imply too $pecific purpo$e for real life u$e, IMO.
If you get my drift. ;)
I will confess to having tried that style of Rockler's "ultimate drawer
slide" jigs a few times.
Have always gone back to the old, time tested, "trim carpenter" method
of attaching the drawer slide to a spacer (using the jig above), then
that assembly to the cabinet, as above.
Much more flexible for my way of working, and for unusual situations,
but as usual YMMV ...
It is a cool jig but I think it might have short comings. Its front FF
reference edge is relatively short and could easily tilt a touch and
allow the slide to be mounted a bit lower on one end. Especially with
heavier slides and when you are holding with one hand and trying to
drill or screw at another angle. That would be my fear as drawer slides
have to be damn near perfectly mounted.
In a few words, existing cabinets being renovated are a totally
different ball game. You don't always have the luxury to reach in from
the top or back or put the cabinet up on a work bench. Jigs solve
I should have been more clear ... The jig in the link above is only used
to attach the drawer slides to spacers in a repeatable, accurate,
production like manner.
Not intended as an installation jig, like the Rockler that Mike mentioned.
Sorry if that was confusing.
I can see that, and the ability to screw below the slides is a great
option as well.
I'd like to ask a question here, it has been on my mind ever since I
started looking at these things, the metal slides. The side slides
take up space, making it necessary to narrow the drawer and everytime
you pull the drawer out you see that big gap.
Is mounting the slide portion that attaches to the drawer possible to
install in a groove/dado about 1/4" deep that would pretty much make
the gap look normal and cover the slide when looking from above? Or
would create complications down the road?
Somehow it just looks obscene to me on/in a wooden cabinet, and the
gap enhances that look.
The grove down the side of the drawer would have to be approximately 2"
wide and about 1/2" deep to fill the gap. That would not work with 1/2"
I think that the gap would not be a thing to fixate on. Instead look at
the big gap between the drawer sides when you pull the drawer open. ;~)
Alternatively, and referencing Swingmans link showing his jig and
"undermount" slides, you see no hardware at all with that set up. BUT
IIRC you have limitations as to how tall the drawer can be compared to
the height of the drawer opening.
Yeah, you guys are probably right, no sense swimming against the tide,
all things considered. But I will probably try at least one for the
garage to see.
I thought the jig was for his side mounts, anyhow I was looking at the
bottom slides, but the costs drive up the job higher than the wood for
the carcases. If it was my final home I would go for it. But the house
I am in it just isn't worth it for this area, unless I happened upon a
real discriminating buyer.
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