Progress on the Nightstands

Unless you have some programming chops, and have a direct need for rolling your own "Dynamic Components", you won't notice anything that will impact your use of SU Make for woodworking at all.

I'm pretty sure Leon has always used the free version since day 1.

As previously noted, you can download, and use, many Dynamic Components (cabinets, fences, stairs, etc) on the 3D Warehouse straight to your model in the free version.

I personally would miss the "Solid Object" tools, available only in SU Pro, but only because I've experienced them by having the Pro version for a number of years.

Never missed them before I upgraded to SU Pro because there are many different ways to skin any particular cat in SU, including thousands of SU plug-ins.

The "Plug-ins" and extensions (there is an Extension Warehouse under you WINDOW menu also) are another world of utilitarian tools you need to check into, most free, but some need to be purchased. There are also third party sites dedicated solely to SU plug-ins. Google is your friend.

I build homes, and do a lot of kitchen and bath remodeling, therefore the Pro version that comes with "Layout", was imperative for me to generate industry standard, and formatted, construction documents for permitting, bidding and building.

Either version is hard to beat for the price as a design tool, a presentation tool to clients, as well as to design, build and fabricate just about anything you can think of.

Wouldn't leave home, or go to the shop, without it ... literally. ;)

Reply to
Swingman
Loading thread data ...

I do a little of each.

Yes, I have run across that too, even your ability to do certain things is not there unless you are facing in the right direction, sometimes I just use the correct plane.

Actually I have been using the flip commands, if I design an end panel I can copy it with the appropriate flips, or slide the copy of the bare end panel and flip, then whatever I do to the one panel will appear on the other side, inside where it should be. But not useful to duplicate on all cabinets with a different purpose at the other end.

This weekend I will probably be spending my time in the shop as it is warming up, supposedly, and practice on dovetails, and some other joints and also check out my new Dado set.

Reply to
OFWW

Yeah, I have a copy on my tablet/notebook with duplicate files from my desktop in case I have a thought.

On Layout, is that the ability to layout the floor plan and walls, and then put in the various cabinets and appliances to see a picture of the final results of the cabinet designs?

Or so that I can redesign my garage layout for tool locations, etc?

I would miss those, and as my wife lacks visual imagination in certain area, It would be hard to show her something without a picture of it.

I can only envision doing this as a business if the economy went dramatically south and I needed a source of income. I have learned to do things sparingly for friends. True friends, IYKWIM.

I've seen some of what it can do based on geographic location, I am totally impressed. You can use that for tree placement around a bldg with deciduous trees for energy management amongst other things.

Reply to
OFWW

VBG

They would have had to do an excellent job of bafflling air flow, without introducing a restriction. I have one that you have to wear ear protectors or you cannot hear anything, I have another that is a lot quieter with similar CFM. I put it in the garage attic space running a hose to the Oneida dust separator and its intake at the center of my garage. One hose that can reach anything and hook up to my equipment and also clean the floor with it. No more yelling to be heard, and like you say with yours, mine is quite, but mine has plywood separating it from the garage. (w/remote control)

That would be my reason for owning one. That does speak to the durability of the tool.

That said, I still would like to get a decent mortiser or make one of those Woodsmith Mag homebuilt ones using a router. Either way it would be a shop use tool only.

Reply to
OFWW

IIRC it is used to filter out sections of the drawing that are not pertinent to whom you might be giving a drawing to. And IIRC it lets you set that part of drawing to scale.

I think you can do what you mentioned above with the free version. You can simply put different elements on different layers.

I did that with the free version. I in fact have a complete model of my home drawn up with all my pieces that I have built in the model and the shop items too.

One thing I have not mentioned is that in our home I place the furniture drawing/model in to the model of our home to see what is going to look like in place. I built a large cabinet/pantry 4 years ago, 8'x8', and was going to stain it a very dark color to match our kitchen cabinets. In the model of the house it looked like a black hole. I ended up toning back a lot of the dark and going two tone with the finish.

I will to this for the customer too, but just the room that the piece that I am going to build.

Concept

formatting link

Reality

formatting link

And a shot of our home with populated with pieces you may have seen already.

formatting link

Reply to
Leon

On 2/5/2016 2:26 PM, OFWW wrote: Snip

The tool literally looks like it did when I bought it. And contrary to what some have indicated, the 5mm bit, I have 4 sizes, has not been replaced or resharpened. That in itself is amazing considering that this bit alone has cut over 7,000 mortises.

Yes I eat, breath, and sleep Festool products, guilty. But I have not seen any brand that holds up like this one does. I have a couple of Festool sanders, a drill, and track saw, also

This will blow your mind. LOL I'm still not sure Swingman believes me. I built a small entertainment center of a customer in November. I sanded all joints and the glue squeeze out with a 120 grit Festool brand Granat sand paper. I also removed the initial finish on the cabinet top that I was not happy with. Removing the finish alone is tough on sand paper.

Now I am working on the night stands and did the same, sanded all joints and glue squeeze out and in fact this morning sanded the FF stain and first coat of varnish off.

This was all done on both projects with a "single" piece of 120 grit Granat sand paper on the Festool Rotex sander.

I have had a Delta mortiser for about 18 years. I have used it about 10 times, maybe. They are cool but I have not touched it since getting the Domino. Essentially the Domino is operated and very much like a Plate Joiner, AKA Biscuit cutter, except much much more accurate. I have been interest in woodworking since I was 10 and have only really been selling my work since retiring at 40. IMHO the Domino enabled me to step up my game significantly and IMHO several times more useful than a mortiser and shockingly faster than a mortiser. With the Domino you do not have to cut a tenon for the mating part. Anyway........ ;~)

Reply to
Leon

Layout allows you to generate, from your model, a set of professional construction plans (dimension, scale, annotate, and print, etc) and views suitable for permitting, bidding and building, just as an architect or engineer would do.

Ya don't need Layout to do that, just use your Sketchup... :)

Here's mine:

formatting link

Reply to
Swingman

Cool.

Is that real or is that Memorex? :)

Awesome, that sure set my mind at rest.

Reply to
OFWW

I like very much, do you have too many drawers? ;)

I D/L's the drawing so now I can walk around your shop from here? And I would probably kill the comment about where your Festools are stored, even tho you have a great view of the shop. Were all your upper cabinets Euro styled? It seems hard to believe you built so much out of the Plywood you picked up. I like the idea of covering up the work stations not in use to keep the dust out. Why I never considered that is beyond me. So I put a dust extractor fan in, Rikon.

All in all, it looks very nice.

That said.... Now Sonny, he has a real man cave. Stuff stashed for centuries all that history around him, probably something only an outside visitor would love to see.

Reply to
OFWW

Leon wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

Has anyone tried Festool paper on other sanders? I used two pieces of 24 grit Saphir paper sanding down some Homasote Spline roadbed with my Festool sander and Fein vac, and while it impressed everybody at the [model railroad] club I can't swing $700 for a "once every year or two" tool. $70 on a Bosch sander and maybe $100 on a decent vac might be doable. Think I'd get anywhere near the performance with just the paper? Enough to make it worthwhile?

I know, this is kinda like putting racing tires on a Buick...

Puckdropper

Reply to
Puckdropper

The paper is absolutely a major part of the longevity, and a vac. It wold probably work pretty good on any sander/vac combo.

Reply to
Leon

On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 11:34:43 PM UTC-6, snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com w rote:

And think how much better your Buick runs with good tires on it!

Leon is right.

No doubt you can get superior performance with the Rotex/Vac Festool combo. But I have very satisfactory results sanding INSIDE homes with my Bosch 5 ", my Milwaukee half sheet, my Ridgid 5" oscillator and my Ridgid 4" finish er. I hook them up to my big shop vac with two sections of hose and put th e vac outside if I am doing a lot of heavy sanding. If I am doing finer wo rk like sanding inside bookcases (refinishing) and not raising much dust, I use the same shop vac with a HEPA or Allergen rated filter in it.

formatting link

It is almost dustless.

However, my one guy that I trust on Festool use (beside Leon!!) tells me th at the Rotex setup with his Festool vac is about 99% dustless in a house if he watches his technique. He does custom cabinet installs as well as cust om butcher block counter tops. He would know. And as a sidebar, it is a $

1400 sanding setup. Sure he vacuums after installation so the vac isn't a single use tool, but the primary use of his setup is to sand inside houses.

I would bet that I get most of that performance out of my setup, but it isn 't as elegant, it is uglier, and it is on helluva lot noisier. His setup j ust >>sounds

Reply to
nailshooter41

Robert you might want to take a look and test drive this sander. Oddly it is in the price range of the "for Roberts hands only" Bosch sander. Although only considered a finish sander it is silky smooth. I played with one at a WW show a few years ago. I was shocked at how I could literally run and guide that sander with a single finger resting on top of the sander.

formatting link

Reply to
Leon

I did ... gave some to Leon.

Reply to
Swingman

inish-sander-571817

Well, I have to say I have never seen that sander. We don't get wood worki ng shows here for some reason, they never have manufacturer demos at our lo cal equipment distributors, and I haven't been in a Woodcraft in years. So ... never seen it. My first impression was, no... I don't want a Speedbloc type sander, but then I watched the video and that isn't it at all. It lo oks pretty well though out for the grip.

I read a ton of reviews, some professional and some not, some on FOG. They all say the same thing, this is a finish sander, and does great finish wor k. In fact the only complaints I read about was that it didn't do more tha n finishing. Users recommend to buy the next sander up for an overall util ity sander. That's not a deal breaker for me as I have a stable of sanders for hard work, including one old Ridgid I have used to sand concrete more than once with a 40gr pad. With quality paper, my other sanders work fine, although they are noisy as hell and the dust collection isn't as good comp ared to the newer stuff.

The $200 isn't scary at all, another surprise. I paid that for my Milwauke e half sheet sander 20 years ago!

Thanks for the heads up.

Have you used the Mirka gold paper? This is the stuff I usually get, and w hen I do I get this package most of the time since I am really on board (as are just about all serious finishers) of working through the grits with no skipping.

formatting link

The only thing I don't like about the Mirka gold is that they are stearate coated. This has on occasion fouled finishes, especially when dying wood. Cheaper stearates can foul anything when they get hot. Looking around at the Festool discs they say they are "coated" but it doesn't say with what. Have you ever used the regular Festool discs? They aren't cheap, but they really aren't that expensive when you put them in as a "disc per project" cost. Not talking about the Granat stuff... it's expensive!

I miss my old sandpaper connection. When I was doing a lot of finishing an d refinishing I used sandpaper like guy with a cold uses tissues. I got hi s contact info from a finishing forum. I found that he bought all the roll ends of Klingspor and Mirka he cold, then took them back to his machinery and punched out 5" and 6" discs on his own. He only bought upper end paper and had some odd grit sizes, but his price was about .35 a disc or less de pending on what he had in stock and how much you bought. Apparently the che ap sandpaper from China a India did him in as he couldn't get as cheap as h is big production shops demanded. And he had stearated and non in most gri ts. He is no longer in the paper business.

Robert

Reply to
nailshooter41

Well you should go to to Woodcraft to try it out If you put it on the short list. I don't own it but again I was really surprised that I could guide it with a finger on the top and it did not bounce around like many ROS sanders if you don't have a good hold. And it is likely to last a very long time.

That would be my bone of contention. The Rotex will just about keep up with a belt sander in aggressive mode but two hands are required in either mode. My Rotex replaced an old right angle PC ROS which was also aggressive. BUT I do have the small rectangular Festool finish sander and it can get into corners, something that round disk sanders do not do. Otherwise I would strongly consider it if any of my Festool sanders actually wear out. I did wear a PC Speedbloc out. ;~)

Users recommend to buy the next

I don't recall any of the Festool sanders being noisy.

sure!

Not on a sander. Before Festool I use a lot of 3M which I did not have to pay for. I acquired it in 250 disk rolls. That was when I worked for a 3M distributor. We looked into taking on Mirka way back when as many of the GM dealerships that we sold to used that brand in the body shops. I do use Mirka Goldflex Soft 4.5" x 5.5" tear off pads. These come on a roll and tear off. They are foam backed and great for easing edges and uneven surfaces but are strictly for hand sanding. They last pretty well and the foam backing gives them just enough stiffness to easily use them with out a block of wood, sand with just your hands on the paper. Several months ago 3M came out with a rubber backed paper that was supposed to last a long time. I tried a couple of sheets and was unimpressed. I have been using the foam back Mirka for hand sanding for about 4 years now.

This is the stuff I usually get,

I have strictly used Festool paper since switching to the Festool sanders. It is expensive but it lasts a long time. I started with the Rubin "red" paper which is interned for bare wood. And used up until I discovered the Granat which is also good for removing paint and finishes. The Granat is very expensive by comparison. BUT the 5" disks I bought in a 10 pack for $13.00. That was many months ago, last Spring maybe and I think there are 6 discs left. And no kidding I have been on a single disk on 3 different pieces of furniture that I have built including removing a finish on all three. Expensive until you realize that the paper lasts 4~5 times longer because it does not load up.

On another note, if you remember a customer's Mexico imported small table in my office, the one we were talking about at Christmas and what may have been used used as a finish and you mentioned "tar", I thought used diesel motor oil. I absolutely think tar was part of the finish. This was not new furniture but it did load up the Granat paper when I sanded the legs. No other modern finish has loaded that paper up at all after it has dried.

Yes, I use/used the Ruben Festool paper. Good paper but it does eventually wear out. LOL. If I am sanding flat surfaces I have to stop the sander and feel how sharp the paper is to determine when to change it. With the dust extraction the paper does not change color and there is no dust to judge if it is still cutting or not. You literally have to feel the paper with your fingers to determine if it has been worn out or not. AND it does have a relatively stiff backing, stiffer than 3M gold.

Not talking about the

LOL, but that stuff lasts a loooong time in my shop. AND this paper seems to be a bit more flexible than the Ruben which lead me to think it might tear more easily. That has not been the case yet. It does seem to be more touchy about sanding with the grain with both my ROS and finish sander. That is the reason that I have had to sand down and reapply the stain finish in places on the last 3 projects. I had scratches show up at the joints. Resanding and paying attention to grain direction instantly solved the issue. I had to be careful with the Rubin but it did not seem to be quite so touchy at the joints.

I bought a 100 pack of 180 grit Granat for the finish sander and IIRC it was about $58. BUT I suspect that it is going to last me for a few years, maybe 3~6. The Ruben 50 packs were lasting me 1~2 years. Of course that all depends on how much work I am doing. But seriously the Granat seems to last at least three times longer than the Rubin and sanding dried glue and finishes is not an issue at all, the paper remains clean. I seldom wipe off glue squeeze out any more.

Reply to
Leon

I also have a Delta Mortiser. The only thing good about it is it is cheap, and is always set up ready to go. I recommend you go with the Domino rather than waste your money (and space) on a dedicated mortiser. If I were younger, and planned on making lots of furniture, I would get a Domino or possibly another brand that does the same thing, if one exists. A mortiser takes up space and unless you have a really nice one, (not a cheapie like the Delta) they are less than stellar. Domino seems to be a stellar piece, quick and easy to use and very, very useful.

Reply to
Jack

Is the ETS125 different than the RO125 in its less aggressive mode? IOW, is there an argument for having both?

Reply to
krw

Could everyone in the back seats move up to the empty ones in the front? ROTF

Welllll.. The RO125 in aggressive mode will remove material at an alarming rate, and in regular ROS it is more normal but IMHO still not a finish sander. Its sanding stroke is 9/64", that is a hair under 1/8". So I typically start my sanding in aggressive mode on solid wood only at the joints with the Rotex. I then switch to the RO mode with the same paper. Then I switch to a finer grit, 150 in RO mode and finish up with the RTS 400 finish sander using 180 grit. Both the RTS 400 and the ETS125 have a 5/64" sanding stroke, about half that of the Rotex Ro125.

So yes the ETS125 is different than the RO125 as far as fine sanding goes. If you are staining you will probably have to go additional finer grits to keep from seeing the swirls. With the finish sander I typically stop at 180. Going finer grits typically means that the stain will come out lighter too.

If you are looking for a good Festool finish sander I would recommend the RTS4000 or the ETS125. If you want to speed up initial sanding, the sanding to make joints smooth and remove glue, the Rotex is going to do that 10 times faster in aggressive mode. With the Granat 120 grit paper. The Rotex can smooth out a glue joint with an undetectable by touch glue line 3~5 seconds, that includes removing glue squeeze out. In regular RO mode probably 10~15 seconds. It can do either with the regular Rubin sand paper also however the glue will load the paper pretty quickly. I have yet to see any loading on the Granat paper when doing this procedure.

As for as an argument for having both, I have always owned, in the past

25 years, RO sanders that were never really considered finish sanders. And I burned through a couple of PC SpeedBloc finish sanders during that time period. The SpeedBloc was a great sander but lacked any kind of dust control. I like a square pad finish sander simply because it gets into tight corners. That said in the past 4~5 years I have changed up how I finish and assemble. While it takes significantly longer to finish and assemble I prefinish parts that would be difficult to finish after assembly. Soooo the ETS125 would probably work better for me these days. I did not do any edge sanding with one but it seems to be quite easy to control and does not require much more than a finger to guide it.

So again, With both sanders, the Rotex and a finish sander, I could see you cutting sanding time down to 1/3 of the time than if you were doing all sanding with a finish sander. The Rotex is really a game changer when considering speed of initial sanding as you are tweaking the fit of the joints especially if the joint surfaces are not on the same plane. After that initial sanding you could finish the rest of the grits with a finish sander in about the same time as with the Rotex in RO mode.

With that in mind, the Rotex might be good enough right down to the finish "polishing" if you are mostly using coarse grain woods like oak AND use a clear finish, no stain. Festool has videos of the Rotex demonstrated on a rough cut slam of "whatever". They use no varnish but in the end steps they use a polish and the wood surface is amazing.

Now I keep mentioning Aggressive, Robatoy turned me on to the Rotex and I recall him cautioning to be careful in Aggressive mode. In that mode the sander removes a lot of material fast. It is not a big concern of controlling the sander, in aggressive mode, so much as the material disappearing pronto. And especially if you are using a vac for dust collection. You will see basically nothing as far as dust is concerned so you don't know how much you are removing unless you check the progress every 3~4 seconds when working on a particular problem area like a joint.

I personally would not consider not having both. They are both equally important tools in their own rights. They both bring something to the table of equal importance, speed and finer finish sanding.

And remember I build a lot and speed is important to me when sanding.

Thank y'all for coming out tonight!

Reply to
Leon

Good Show and especially the info, being in the back row the explanations make up for the loss of sight because of the fat guys in front of me. ;)

Reply to
OFWW

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.