Afternoon everyone,
I guess I made a mistake.... TTI was not the company that ended up buying the Pentair Tools Group, it was Black and Decker who bought the Pentair tools group for $700 million.
Isn't this agonna be interesting....
David.
Press release here
Hang onto your current tools. Now that the B&D accountants are in charge, we'll see the value of tools that actually work shoot up in value over time as everything marketed is dumbed down to the level of "everything battery operated in one suitcase" sold to the person that only uses tools to hang pictures.
Am I cynical or what.
Mike
That's what I thought when B and D brought back DeWalt. Delta's customer service has become so poor, and so many tools are now made in Taiwan, I don't see a downside. They were bought out by a company that actually makes tools. At Pentair, they were an unknown cog in a wheel.
ANd wrong? I don't find all the DeWalt tools that bad or dumbed down.
Charlie Self "When you appeal to force, there's one thing you must never do - lose." Dwight D. Eisenhower
"...a cog in a wheel"?
Kevin
In the very short term, nothing will happen.
In the medium term - we'll see typical organizational optimization working. Activities to streamline the organization. My bet is that this too will largely be invisible to the averager 'dorker - except for Customer Service. I'd expect Customer Service centers to merge. Maybe they'll identify low-hanging-product fruit: targeting overlapping or unprofitable product.
Long term, is where I'd bet they start thinking about affecting product lines.
Interesting reading...#1 I never realized that B&D ever sold Dewalt...for as long as I can remember Dewalt was the "budget" (i.e. crap) line for B&D until they repositioned it in the mid-90's. Now they are a force to be dealt with and B&D is the "crap"...go figure.
Delta is pretty much already positioned as stationery tools so they only have to worry about Jet/Grizzly/others which will serve to keep the accountants at bay (give me junk and I'll change flags in a heartbeat). The Dewalt/PC hook-up will be a much more interesting story...it's been a toss-up on a lot of tools in the past couple years, me always tending towards PC given the old mindset that Dewalt was still crap and on top of that AEG killing Milwaukee for a couple of years before they realized what they were doing.
All in I think we are going to get better tools, hopefully better service.
Tom Kohlman responds:
B&D used to have a Professional line of hand power tools that was excellent. DeWalt back then was their stationary tool arm, mostly radial arm saws (but not on the old DW pattern).
AFAIK, DW was never the "crap" line, but other than the pro line, B&D turned out a consumer line of tools through the '80s that was neither better nor worse than today's line. In the early '90s, B&D positioned DeWalt as their primary pro tool line and dropped the B&D Professional line.
Tool buying tendencies depend on perceptions. Your concept of DW as crap is an unusual one, though.
We hope. I for one do not particularly like consolidation amongst tool companies. So far, it hasn't resulted in any real horror stories in my life, and I was very impressed last month when I visited the Lavergne, TN assembly line at WMH where model 66's are put together.
That said, it's easy to see how little effort would be needed to switch that tool, and the 3 to 5 HP shapers that are also assembled there, overseas for production. Current production is all U.S., with outsourcing limited to about
200 miles around Lavergne (Nashville area). Already, most of the Delta production, as well as Powermatic, is overseas. Their flagship units tend to at least be assembled in the U.S., but as quality perceptions change, that may well change also.Charlie Self "The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
Charlie Self apparently said,on my timestamp of 20/07/2004 5:27 AM:
Quite frankly, I think there is a bit of elitism in all this. Tools made in Taiwan or China are not inherently worse than others, they just are not subjected to the same quality control as everywhere else. A number of reasons for this, that don't matter here.
Down-Under, we have a new kid in the block called GMC. Stands for Global Machinery Corporation, or words to that effect. The tools are cheap as dirt, made in China mostly, I think.
Locally, it's a "social" in-thing for the "toolies" to denigrate their products. Yet I've found they have some very good ones. The compressor is dirt cheap and works a treat. The tablesaw is actually quite nice and needs very little "fettling" to make it work smooth and straight. At the price, it's unbeatable.
Of course, I won't be able to run a construction site off the comp, or use the tablesaw as a panel saw. But I never wanted to, anyway!
Their angle grinders are cheap and unbreakable. Their drills are powerful and will last quite a while if not abused in construction site conditions. Their tools provide GREAT value and are excellent for those of us who do NOT need pro-level tooling or trade-quality tools.
And let's not forget that most of the "pro-quality" tools are a consumer rip-off to start with: a trader or pro can usually obtain them at a discount or claim them as a tax dodge, which is simply not an option for a normal consumer. Value for moolah? Pah!...
I'm not so sure about this "all things cheap are rubbish" when it comes to power tools. Seen enough to convince me that it is not usually true. My drill press is an el-cheapo Chinese stand alone model that is built like a tank and has excellent after-market supplies and stock-standard parts. So are the bandsaur and lathe: with two afternoons each of fettling, they sing. And their price was ridiculously low compared to name-brand products.
Hand tools I agree: buy the best at whatever cost, your muscles will thank you. But power tools? Get something that will do the job at the level of use you need, with minimal after-market tuning. Or go for a colour you like. And be done with it.
Couldn't care less if it is Metabo, Bosch, B&D, DeWalt, Makita, GMC, Ozito, Clarke, Milwaukee, Grizzly, whatever.
(although I still want to get a Metabo SBE850 Impulse, that will have to wait... :)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie Self" Newsgroups: rec.woodworking Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 4:18 AM Subject: Re: Opps, Black and Decker buys Delta/Porter Cable..
I have to agree. I still have a corded drill, circular saw, router and jig saw from the B&D TRADE line from the early 80's (mother in law worked at B&D). These tools are tough. I have beat the crap out of them over the years and they are still going strong. They were dark brown in color. I believe this line became the Dewalt line. The router is identical to the first Dewalt and the jig saw was the same for many years.
Noons responds:
I've seen them in Home Depot, but don't have any. Mostly they seem to be reprises of tools already in my shop, even after all the hopping around, so...if they can make a SCMS to beat the 12" Bosch, I'd love to know.
As long as tools like this are decently machined and assembled, most of us have no need for anything fancier, though we'll jump on the fancier, more costly, stuff when we can swing.
I am of the opinion that it is better to get on with cutting wood, even if you have to use cheap tools, than it is to sit back smugly and save for top of the line tools, while your kitchen cabinets fall apart, or your furniture dumps you on the floor or you never get a chance to develop skills until you get the kids out of the house, retire or some other great life event. Using cheap tools for a few eyars, even a decade, is not a curse. It may sometimes be an inconvenience, but when the time comes, the fancier stuff will be even more appreciated. Or so I think.
Charlie Self "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty." George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra (1901)
And so I think, too. I had the "$35" circular saw for decades (more than one, obviously). And they crosscut 2x4's just fine. Then my wife bought me a DeWalt for Christmas one year (I had been really good ...) and the first time I fired it up: OH BOY!!!!
Actually, that is the "curse"! Several yellow, and some gray, fancy tools later, I gave up my Toyota pick-up for a BMW.
It's good to be older and have more insurance ... ;-)
David
"Say it isn't so Joe", to paraphrase the movie about the Chicago Black Sox scandal.
Lew
This one will be of particular interest to those of us up here in Canada.
Up here, Delta and Porter Cable share a complete distribution channel. From warehouse to sales reps. Of course, DeWalt / B&D is up here too. So the question is - will B&D maintain the deal with Porter Cable, or will PC have to go it alone? I would assume that the DeWalt Sales Reps will now be the ones supplying stores with the Delta product.
Anyhow, the thoughts of a Yellow Unisaw make me ill.
Delta has been declining recently, so whether it's Ryobi or DeWalt it doesn't matter much. That line of cordless drills, etc. was all junk. "Cheap" became a focus with them, so things can't go down hill much more than they have.
But like someone else said, if you have some older Delta stuff - keep it. It will hold it's value well.
Brian
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:10:31 GMT, "Lew Hodgett" calmly ranted:
Crikey, I'd have done just the opposite. A good truck is far better than a silly, unstable, overpriced, overimaged import car.
Q: What car has Larry seen which has been most involved in single car crashes and turned upside down on Interstate 5?
A: BMW 7xx sedan. 2 in 2 years, both flipped when idiot driver swerved and locked brakes trying to avoid stopped traffic in the fast lane of southbound I-5 up the mild grade to the La Jolla Village Drive offramp. Neither hit another car as I could see all 4 fenders on both upside-down vehicles as we crawled by behind the GDMF LookyLous.
--------------------------------------------------- I drive way too fast to worry about my cholesterol. ---------------------------------------------------
This phenomenon is known at Gawker Lock. j4
I share that perception. Maybe it is the color? In the early '90s I think my perception was correct.
-Jack
I don't think so. When DeWalt changed over to portable power tools in the early '90s, their basic stock consisted of re-packaged Elu and Black & Decker Professional tools. Neither brand was "crap." If you're writing of the radial arm saws, those could be classed as crap only in comparison to Ray DeWalt's package towards the mid-'30s and into the '40s and '50s.
I've disliked some individual DeWalt tools, but I've never felt the brand could be considered a low end name.
Charlie Self "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty." George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra (1901)
I have a copy of a letter between two former Delta employees where one lamented this to the other. The time period they were speaking of was the late 40's.
UA100
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