Help me understand this. I understand that Cheaper Price, Fast work results in low quality. And quality work, fast work results in higher price.
But if you give them Cheaper price, Quality Work, but not fast, then you're probably not making very little the hour and not making money.
They get to wait until you're not doing anything more profitable?
Persactly!
I read it the opposite way. Keep up the good work and the fair pricing. ;-)
Not necessarily. If you can work their needs in while in the area, or while you have a break between jobs that figures in to your schedule. The problem arises when they demand all three parameters on their terms.
I will do XXX for $2,000.
At that price I have provided you, the client, with quality work at a cost that is both reasonable for him and provides a profit for me.
The $2,000 is my price point to make the desired profit.
If the you turn around and decides that you wants the job done at that price, with quality assured but want me to drop everything else and get it done tomorrow, that will not happen since it means my other clients, expecting their work done correctly in the time frame agreed to will be left out in the cold.
If I choose to accede to your demands/time frame, you WILL pay for it. With me, it will be monetarily, if I can accommodate you time wise with no difference in the quality of the work performed.
Others may give you the time frame, but likely will not give you the quality. Something has to give.
Note that I'm speaking of professional services rather than carpentry or the trades, although I think it applies equally across the board.
Call a lawyer tomorrow and ask him what he'll charge you to defend you on a contested traffic violation. Got the price? Okay, now call him back and tell him your court appearance is tomorrow morning at 10:30AM or maybe kick it up a notch and mention, "by the way, court is at the Branch Court in the SE corner of the county, not at the county seat" where is office is located. Let me know what he says. ;)
Shall we talk about a plumber coming out in the evening or weekend? If you find one that won't be charging a differential for nights, weekends, or "Jesus H. Keerist! You gotta get here RIGHT NOW, I'm floating" don't mention his name as you'll never get through on his phone again! ;)
Correct in part, but there's more to the equation than that. See my previous response to -MIKE-
Hmmmm. Guess I am lucky, or special. I've never done a construction job w here I did not do it right. On the paying jobs I've done, I always said th is is what I am going to do and this is what it will cost. No discussion o r arguing to that. On the non paying jobs I just say this is what it costs for the parts and my labor of course is donated. There is no arguing over the parts.
I have a saying, "There are a million ways to do something, and one right way." So I think we are in the same camp for the most part.
In this particular case, there is wood rot around at the bottom of a door jamb, at the threshold, that allowed water to get inside the house and under the finished flooring.
To do it "right" would mean removing the entire door frame to inspect for damage and possible rotted wood underneath, which is how I advised the landlord. Then replace the rotted section with a composite material or replace the entire jamb with composite material (about $50 for pvc door frame). This is the way it would be done in order to be able to guarantee no further damage.
After asking me the "what would you do it it was your house?" question and explaining the above, the only option the landlord allowed in the discussion was to patch the rotted wood section. There are two ways to do this. Cut and scab or use a 2-part filler.
At this point, I have the option of walking away and refusing the job, or accepting a specific repair request and doing it the best way possible. There are literally a million of these rotting door jambs within a 25 mile radius of me and having a cost effective way to "repair" them could be a lucrative specialty business all in itself.
I have used both methods of repair, depending on the specific situation, and they both do the job well. However, neither address other existing rot or future potential rotting. For example, I have seen wood rot that presented itself as being caused by water settling at the threshold/jamb corner, but it was actually being caused by water getting behind brick at the top of the door where it wasn't flashed properly and running down the inside and settling at the threshold, rotting the jamb from the inside out (and about 6" of jack stud as well). It rotted the stud first, then the jamb.
All that to say, I guess I can do this repair "right" without doing it "right." Meaning, I'm being hired to patch some rotted wood and I'll do it right. I'll use a high quality band-aid and apply it correctly and get paid. But I can't guarantee it'll stop the bleeding somewhere else.
-MIKE- on Thu, 8 Feb 2018 19:22:09 -0600 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
I read an essay by a professional furniture maker, who said that the finest furniture he's seen, was made by his neighbor the accountant. Because his neighbor could afford to take the time to select materials, work the materials, take all the pains eh cared to take, because _he_ was not depending on something selling to pay the bills. Whereas he, the professional, need to have X number of items go out the door a month in order to have Y dollars come back in, to pay bills, paychecks and overhead.
So, yeah, if I'm working on something, I can take the time I need.
This was a topic of discussion over dinner one evening during my club's show... I went out with Doug Stowe (a former rec participant) and the other professional presenters and to a man they agreed that the best work will come out of amateurs. This because they can take all the time they want, learn all they want, and in some cases spend all the money they want, in creating the object. On the other hand, the professionals have to worry about making a living. As I recall, they also wished they'd become commercial successes about 10 years sooner... their early years as studio woodworkers were lean. This was clearly a shared experience even if they did it independently...
Most years I go out to dinner with the professionals and it is a very stimulating experience. The degree to which they delve into woodworking goes far beyond the techniques that most show goers seek when attending the presentations. On a related note, at another organization's show, I recall Mario Rodriguez saying that good design is the hard part... after than you can always manage to put it together. This was code for the joinery is the easy part... yet the beginning to middling hobbyist woodworker often struggles with the joinery and help with that is what folks seek at the show presentations.
Note of interest and specific to my recent experience:
how presentations.
A few years ago I mentioned, here, I needed more learning and experience wi th making different joints. In making the latest cypress chairs, I resear ched for a good joint for the back legs & backrest frame attachment to the seat. I discovered the Maloof joint, so that's what I'm using.
I have 4, of the 5, chair frames done and discovered, last night on one cha ir, I cut the left back leg to fit the right side of the seat, and the righ t leg to fit the left side. Sometimes you feel like a nut.....
I blame this mistake to a number of facts, related to the salvaged lumber b eing used: 1) that each seat slab has a slightly different thickness, as d oes 2) each leg stock. I thought it best to cut all stock and fit to asse mbly, before carving the finish profiles on each element... slow going. A ll pieces are scattered about, so apparently I got the pieces and parts mix ed up, at least for this chair's mistake.
In doing some preliminary carving, a few days ago, I stabbed myself in the wrist with a carving tool, requiring one stitch and a tetanus shot..... my (personal) most serious accident, ever, in the wood shop. Alls well, now.
Yep, it's nice to have the opportunity or make time to hobnob with the pros , as you describe.
Sonny
MIKE... I have found that many realtors are clinically, irretrievably stupi d. One could speculate brain damage and not be out of line. I work with o ne or two a year, and that's it.
I used to have a lot of realtors that called and wanted full estimates in w riting, only to find that they wanted and estimate from a reputable company to take to closing to make sure that repair expenses were covered. I was nothing more than a bargaining chip with no intention of being asked to the work.
The last one I worked with had to work with me as I had worked for the clie nt before, and he had moved and didn't want anyone he didn't know in the ho use. So the realtor was stuck with me and she was pissed off the whole tim e, trying to desconstruct my contract and get her husband on the work (foun d out that after he retired he formed a "make ready" company) the entire ti me I was working on the project. I would tell her my electrician was a week away from coming out and she would *gasp* for dramatic effect. Hers was a lways on call for her, and her only. Same with every other trade. She was completely pissed off that I charged her $187 more on a $12,000 con tract for 3 GFIs that were found to be inoperable after an hour of testing (included). This house is now on the market for $980,900! Really? Three GFIs and the time to find the problems and it was less than $200? Truth be told, the $187 was what my electrician charged me.
I try to stay away from realtors, period. When you say you provide free es timates, they think you are a public service provided by some rich foundati on so it is no big deal for you to spend a few days measuring, finding prod uct, estimating costs, and writing up a legally binding contract. Hey, if i t's free to them, it must be cheap and nearly free to do, right?
And I am tired of hearing the same old warmup when I meet on site. "Well, Robert, I just want you to know who you will be bidding against. I have a old guy in his 70s that is blind in one eye, and doesn't have all the "fanc y" tools, but can do work for me real cheap. You are here because I couldn 't find him for a couple of weeks, and his daughter told me he couldn't com e to work for me because his truck is in the shop and he can't get it out b ecause he doesn't have any money. She told me it was vandalized when someo ne stole all his tools. He didn't return my phone calls because he never s et up his voice mail and forgets to charge his phone so we never connected and I didn't know all of that. I usually have to give him half down on any repairs, but I don't think we can do that this time. Did I mention how ch eap he works?"
My commercial managers that I work for on a routine basis are cheap, but th ey pay their bills and understand that when you pay bananas you get monkeys to do the work. For a couple of them, I will do anything from repairing th eir roofs and office finish out to property inspections and lockouts of the ir tenants. One of my commercial managers has even given me a key to all t he business in the center so I can have access as needed.
What a contrast. Most of the realtors I know also think (no doubt from hou rs of the DIY/Flip This House watching) that they really designers at heart . If a house needs more than a paint job, you have to indulge them while t hey "share their vision" of opening up a space, making a room more dramatic , and bringing more light into an area. My commercial folks are more along the line of "hey Robert, can we get this in under 2K? Yeah? How soon?" I bid for the office finish outs, but for the most part pissing away two we eks of phone calls and discussions for a $500 repair job just isn't worth t heir time.
Like I said, what a difference.
Robert
That's a huge problem, right there. They just want an estimate to use as a bargaining point to get the seller to come down on price. In most cases, they never intend for the work to even be done.
I tell people, straight up, I'm not going to be the cheapest guy and I don't want to be. I say there will always be somebody who will do it cheaper and they may even be doing it all legally. :-)
You said it perfectly, many realtors see themselves as designers. I see it like the old saying, "Music critics are usually poor musicians who couldn't make it in the music business." HGTV is good and bad for our business. I get to install (and remove in
10 years) all the silly fads on those shows. Barn doors, ship lap paneling, etc., etc.I don't now how Realtors still make a living. Wait, yes I do. The buyer's and seller's agents each get 3%. Lame. Seller's agent, I get. But a buyer's agent!? What do they do!? Heck, 9 out of 10 houses our last agent brought to the table, we had already seen on Zillow.
On 2/10/2018 2:44 PM, -MIKE- wrote: Snip
Definition of a designer. A person that does not realize that a sketch is not a set of plans.
And you can't fix stupid.
Snip
Is that where "monkey with a football" came from? ;)
I ended up using two 2-part epoxy products that I've used before. Both are exterior and completely waterproof. The first is Elmer's Damaged Wood Repair System which is great for filling big voids. The second is Bondo All-Purpose Putty, which is the same thing as their
2-part wood filler, sans the wood fiber. Unless you're staining, use the all-purpose-- you get twice as much for the price.I've used the 2-part Bondo wood filler before and love it. It sets up very fast and you can build coats quickly and sand within 15-30 minutes.
The day before, I applied Minwax Wood Hardener which works really well to stabilize softer wood and prime it for sticking to the epoxy.
I filled the deep voids with the Elmers. It has a 1-hour work time and "cures" overnight, so it is slower than other 2-part products. However, it doesn't need to be totally cured to build over. I went to lunch to let it stiffen up.
Next, I applied the first coat of Bondo putty and let it stiffen enough that I could "work it" some. About halfway through the catalyst cycle it becomes a bit like play-doh and can be mushed around into shape. Using a plastic putty knife sprayed with acetone, you can work it like pottery clay. About 15 minutes later, it's ready for sanding.
I had a pretty good finished shape after the 1st layer of Bondo filler, with some light filling to finish it up. Another feathering coat and some sanding and it was done.
The paint you see is a Zinsser exterior primer that looks better than the paint on the rest of the door frame. There are some tiny voids and paint bubbles that I would normally touch-up and smooth out, but since this repaired section looks a lot better than the rest of the door frame, the client was happy with the end product. They have a painter coming in to do the whole house, so they will do the detail work on the door.
Here's the rotted jamb.
"Well, I spoke with Sam Hill and he said he'd do it for. . . "
I won't dispute that, He knows what his work is worth! ;)
Nice job.
If I ever become a landlord I'll be sure to use you for my repair work...as long as we can agree on a price. ;-)
Haha! Remember my motto: "I may be slow, but at least I'm expensive." :-D
[snip]
In that case you can rest assured that he will at least use you for insurance repair estimates! Snerk!
Hmmm...good call. Maybe I should get some estimates now and save them for the "appropriate" time (like when I'm short of cash).
Mike: Let's go with some water damaged floors, a rotted window sill and a f ire damaged roof. Hand written, black ink. Don't date them. Thanks.
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