Re: OT: And remoaners don't believe we've been hoodwinked.

Was that on your pre poll vote spreadsheet as it wasn't written on the side of the bus?

Cheers, T i m

It happens that bm formulated :

The lying conniving buggers, we were led by the nose into the mess..

Are you questioning the truth of the documents that these newspaper articles refer to, or are you saying that they are true but unimportant to us in the UK?

I am shocked that the UK knew about the EU's aims so long ago and suppressed them, but I can't say I am altogether surprised that the EU *had* those aims so long ago: nothing about the corruptness of the EU surprises me. I do wonder whose side our politicians were on: that of UK citizens or that of the EU.

I am passionately pro-Europe (in terms of a common market for trade) but I am equally passionately anti-EU (in terms of harmonised law-making, loss of internal border controls and other losses of sovereignty). A single outer border (at the perimeter of the EU) is all very well until those borders are expanded further and further, including those who we would rather exclude. I believe it is the right of every country to be able to decide not only how many people it allows into the country but also *which* people it allows in, and for those it allows in, to control how much of their earnings may be removed from the country to one with a lower standard of living (where money buys more) instead of having to be spent in the country it is earned.

What I don't understand - and no-one has ever explained to me convincingly - is why we in the UK *seem* to be at odds with other European countries about the loss of sovereignty. Why don't Germany, France, Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Portugal etc feel concerned that *their* law-making processes are being subsumed by the EU's?

Yes. I just looked at the sources and discounted them at that point.

No, I wasn't, but that could well be the case.

Assuming the 'information' is true presumably or are you saying they are (and can prove them and the implication of the suggestions therein are so somehow)?

As are some, however, I'm not sure running away from it is the 'best' solution (and that doing so will fix any of that in any case).

The chances are if 'we' (assuming you mean the UK) would rather exclude them then 1) doesn't that mean we would veto their membership and therefore 2) they wouldn't be allowed to join?

That's how it currently works, for all people from outside our 'club'? It's like having a gym membership of a national chain and with the rights to go to any one and that particular gym saying they don't want you there 'because'. If you want it that way then you will also lose the option of being able to go where *you* want (even if *you* don't want to, others might).

But it isn't 'a country' thing at that point is it, it's a bigger thing.

Ok.

Because:

Cheers, T i m

Denial? Is this a Remoaner thing?

Nope, lack of corroborative evidence.

It could be ... or just someone not willing to 'just believe' what could easily be fake news.

So, if you can find any of that please, ideally written by someone neutral to it all .. ?

Cheers, T i m

Are you seriously in denial that document FCO 30/1048 exists?

That a document called that exists, no, it's just that I'm finding it hard to take any of this seriously these days, it's just the interpretations that might be in question.

So, have you read it personally, or just read someone's interpretation of it?

Cheers, T i m

There is a full copy here...

Sorry, that can't be it can it as it seems to be just some leave propaganda?

Cheers, T i m

I haven't the inclination to read it, but then I also don't feel the need to say:

But then I'm not a poor loser Remoaner.

Ah, enough said then. You maybe happy to take someone else's interpretation at face value (because it furthers your cause) but don't actually want to find out the truth for yourself?

Well it was bm and he's know for his crying wolf and fake news here. ;-)

Plus, you have in spirit by not being willing (able?) to provide factual answers to my point.

And nor am I (as I didn't vote remain), I'm just still someone keen to see fact not fiction bandied about.

Cheers, T i m

Well, the only reason I might hesitate to click on the link was 1) that you are posting it and 2) it looks like yet another Brexiteer 'crusader' site, 'acasefortreason'?

So, has a neutral or remainer read it and put their interpretation forward do you know (I do understand you wouldn't care about a 'balanced' pov on any of this).

Cheers, T i m

You spoke the truth at last. ;-)

Oh, I voted, I just didn't vote for either of the two options you were forced to accept as the only options we had.

Cheers, T i m

Ok?

No ... what, it doesn't actually say what some Brexit crusaders suggest it does?

Quite, no one (in their right mind) wants that, they would rather work from fact than bias (especially an uninformed one).

I'll be ok with my white noise generator for my Tinnitus, but thanks for your concern.

Doubt it.

It does?

No need mate. You would only need to say sorry if I cared about what you say but luckily you just make me laugh. ;-)

Anyway, now this document has been highlighted to all and sundry I'm sure that we will get loads of opinions on it, mostly from the Brexiteers of course, highlighting the 3 lines amongst the other

Cheers, T i m

Probably because they're more interested in practice than theory. And perhaps they don't have the same popular press doing their utmost to wind people up about the EU.

T i m submitted this idea :

With a scan of the FCO 30/1048 below it?

And it might get shorter with more budget money going to the Brexit farce than the NHS.

I'm guessing you had that on your spreadsheet before you voted Leave ... I mean, you wouldn't have voted Leave blindly would you?

Cheers, T i m

And you have read it all and can confirm that it only says the banner headlines that the Brexiteers are getting excited about?

The bits I read didn't seem to suggest anything untoward at all?

What would be interesting is if one of the staunch remainers agreed with the hype (then I might consider there is something to it).

Clutching at straws?

Cheers, T i m