OT: VE day warplanes

[Cynic]

Probably half the story. Is the NA procedure advisory or mandatory? Were there procedural reasons for deviating?

[Cynic]

He's wrong. There is a minimum size but no maximum size. The minimum size is clearly visible at the minimum permitted height (except over a built-up area or at night). That does *not* mean that they will not also be clearly visible quite a bit above that height.

[Periander.]

....

The ones in New Addington can.

[Martin]

I thought it was supposed to be quite good - must be the crew!

Better late than never - and better to keep UK research going!

We all know British aircraft done properly are the best (including a joint project on SSTs)

[Alex Heney]

Fair enough. I can certainly accept that.

There is certainly very little.

Yes, it will only make it easier. It certainly won't make it possible where it isn't now.

TBH, I think photo driving licences were really an attempt to bring in ID cards by the back door. They certainly do get used for that function, but of course there is no compulsion on anyone to have a driving licence at all.

A good, and strong argument against the introduction of them.

Much more sensible than the people who have been suggesting we would be "slaves" or "Serfs" or "Cattle". :-)

I withdraw my suggestion that we never get rational arguments.

True. I didn't mean to argue that it definitely would not happen here. I was just trying to point out that it is not inevitable, as others seemed to think.

Good point.

I am not at all sure what advantage the citizens of those countries have obtained, if any at all.

And the only reason I have for thinking that the UK would not go the way of societies who have abused the cards is that I don't think the British public would stand for it.

I agree that I don;t like our current government *at all*, and I certainly agree that their control-freak tendencies are way too strong. But we are still nowhere near the type of society that could reasonably be described as "repressive" - hence why (if the media are to be believed) most of the world's asylum seekers make a beeline for Britain.

As I have said before in this thread, I have no particular brief for ID cards. I certainly do not think there has been any convincing case made for the introduction of compulsory cards.

But I also wouldn't be particularly concerned at their introduction, and object to the emotive descriptions of those willing to accept them used by many of the people who oppose them.

[Alex Heney]

I'm not sure about that.

Although I don't recall my daughter's boyfriend needing one when he flew down from Edinburgh to Cardiff recently, but that might just be him not mentioning it.

[Cynic]

I tried that Landranger map reference but ended up in the estury South of Southend! I'm obviously using the wrong map grid. Maybe someone will be able to convert to lat & long or find it on a web map.

Having a look in the general area you referenced (my chart is the wrong scale to show local names so I don't have the exact place), I see that there is a typical major airport control zone around Manchester, crossed by low-level routes for fixed & rotary wing aircraft. The control zone in your area is down to the surface, so the helicopters are almost certainly having to fly inside one of the designated low-level routes. Without knowing specifically, it is therefore very likely that you happen to be located where helicopters are squeezed between the ground and the ceiling of a confined low-level corridor. If it's any consolation, those corridors aren't a lot of fun for the pilots either - especially so before GPS made the navigation so much easier!

If I'm correct, the alternative to disturbing your sheep would be to disturb a 747 coming in to Manchester or fly a 30 mile diversion around the zone.

[Brimstone]

Building under licence means that one becomes an assembler of parts. There is no need for a R&D department so any ability to develop one's own products disappears.

[M. J. Powell]

In message , Cynic writes

Mandatory. A 2 mile wide track after take off.

No reasons given.

Mike

[Cynic]

OK, your reference to Macclesfield & Stockport has allowed me to get a better idea of the place. Perhaps the helicopters are going to/from Woodford airport? (I see it on the chart but do not have my book to look it up & see if that's likely).

You are on high ground and well inside a class "A" control zone that extends down to the surface. All aircraft will definitely be tracked inside the zone, and under the control of Manchester. Those pilots are not flying as and where they please & playing silly buggers for fun - that sort of thing doesn't happen inside class "A" airspace!

If you like I'll send you last year's aeronautical chart so you can see what pilots are up against when navigating through a complex control zone. The sky may look perfectly clear, but it's full of inverted wedding-cake control areas, airways, restricted areas and danger areas that are obviously invisible, but the pilot must know where they are and fly only where permitted. That's in addition to the more tangible objects such as terrain, low cloud and radio masts. In such airspace, I'm afraid the sheep do tend to receive a low priority. When in the freedom of class "D" airspace, the pilot can afford to take a bit more notice of *what's* on the ground and not just where the ground is!

[Fat Sam]

That's because the map reference was incomplete....A grid reference requires a minimum of 4 numbers, and a 2 letter *grid incidence* prefix....Without the prefix, you'll find that a grids reference is repeated several times all over the country.... Mikes reference was a 6 figure reference, which gives an accuracy of 100 metres, so it's plenty adequate to locate a hill or geographical land feature of that scale....

He included the map sheet number, which on the face of it, is a logical alternative if he's unaware of the importance of the grid incidence prefix....However, unless you actually have that map sheet in front of you, it's meaningless.....If you're trying to enter the grid reference into an online mapping service, or a GPS system, you will need the grid incidence prefix....

[Fat Sam]

Having worked with them, I can assure you the Tornado isn't as good as the MOD would like the public to believe....

Don't get me wrong, it's still a highly capable combat aircraft....It's just that there are other aircraft that are more capable....

We had one at Marham which had to be retired from service because a pilot had literally bent the airframe by pulling too many G's, trying to avoid hiiting the ATC tower following an extremely low flypast on 2 Sqn's HAS site....

[AlanG]

You will be treated like cattle. Cattle are owned. ID cards will mean being owned by the state. At it's most extreme you will only be permitted access to state supplied facilities on production of an ID card while not being in possession of one will be grounds for arrest.

You just aren't clever enough to recognise one

[Tony Bryer]

You obviously understand these things so you can answer a question that has puzzled me for years. You may set your altimeter correctly at take off but if you fly any distance the atmospheric pressure will change. Therefore if you fly level the altimeter will show you ascending or descending as you flying into or away from low pressure? You therefore need to adjust your altimeter every 20(?) minutes to give the correct reading. But you don't know what correct is as the only thing that tells you that you're at 20000ft or whatever is the now inaccurate altimeter. There's something here I'm not understanding ...

[Steve Walker]

Hell, I know places where the dogs can *steal* scooters.

[Alex Heney]

What utter rubbish.

And even at that most extreme, you would still not be owned by the state.

Utter rubbish.

I just don't accept that "you are all cattle is a rational argument.

That is just emotive tripe.

Which is what you provide more often than not.

[Brimstone]

The prefic in this case is SJ. The map can be seen at

and by entering sj963805 into the box bottom right of the screen where it says "VIEW MAPS ONLINE".

[Mike]

It was. I didn't want to mention the birds (even RSPB are not aware as far as I know - twitchers are between ramblers and cyclists on the evolutionary scale) so as somebody pointed out, I blagged and got away with it. He was so far away from any public footpath having climbed over several fences to get there that he knew he was well in the wrong and did pull the film.

[Mike]

Don't moan at us farmers. But from 2012 a lot of the subsidy is to land taken out of use (set-aside) and the rest to land kept in tip-top condition. Wouldn't want anything nasty like a crop or sheep ruining it, would we ? :-(

As you say, absolutely insane.

[Mike]

Not necessary. The law was changed so it is the intent to steal them is enough.