Grenfell Tower - Celotex

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Didn't read the planning app for Grenfell that carefully, but it did mention making more flat per floor on some of them. Could be they made some larger ones too.

[tabbypurr]

are they big enough for a largish stairwell? And do the flat layouts align on every floor to make it doable? And would the new stairwell have communal access?

NT

[Richard]

Dave likes to be consistent.

[0345.86.86.888]

I set some on fire quite easily with the sparks of a metal grinding disk when using an off-cut of Cellotex as a spark deflecter (thinking the stuff would be fireproof). The sparks were hitting the non-foiled end grain and I'm sure it actually had flames coming from it not to mention lots of quite nasty smoke.

[RJH]

FFS! I'd not leave you in charge of my property portfolio :-)

[RJH]

If inadequately enclosed insulation board is the problem I can see all sorts of problems ahead. On the house reproofing I've seen, celotex is fixed between the joists against the internal plasterboard with no covering to the outside.

[harry]

I think the answer is to have good fire alarms. Perhaps even in the loft itself and linked to the others.

[Roland Perry]

In message , at

13:05:38 on Tue, 20 Jun 2017, [e-mail] remarked:

Big enough for a secondary *emergency* staircase, in addition to the existing main staircase. Or if you need more room, then sacrifice the

2nd bedroom from two adjacent flats.

Yes and yes.

However, the biggest problem is breaching the concrete floors all the way through the 24 floors, and making sure the sides of the stairwell are isolated from the flats.

[Roland Perry]

In message , at

22:14:43 on Tue, 20 Jun 2017, jim remarked:

It's OK, I did that research before posting the original suggestion. So I can answer it off-the-cuff.

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 15:58:53 on Tue, 20 Jun

2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

safely

better than condemning the whole block

Which is why they should be vented. And perhaps stiffer firedoors.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

It would almost certainly be cheaper and better to demolish and start again.

[The Natural Philosopher]

It isnt.

Te problem is inflammable decorative cladding applied over the (fireproof) insulation

And how many house fires have we had since celotex became de facto roof insulation?

More than enough to raise alarms if celotex was an issue

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Not so sure about that. The original block was built in a particular way to contain any fire to a small area. It seems to have been updating work which was the cause of this disaster. Even more major updating to include a second internal staircase might well create as many problems as it is meant to solve. Better to demolish and start again.

One properly protected stairwell and we'd not have had this appalling outcome. That, to me, is the important part any investigation has to explain. An escape route is the last resort which is by far more important than any other.

Adding a second staircase with the same woeful disregard for making it conform to what is already common knowledge is simply throwing good money after bad.

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 10:53:23 on Wed, 21 Jun

2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

They probably will demolish the block that caught fire, so we are discussing here some unquantified subset of the 4000 other residential tower blocks in the country.

What do you think would have protected it better? (Genuine question, not a devils advocate).

Why assume here was any woeful disregard in the design of the first staircase?

[dennis]

Just build it on the outside and you only need a fireproof walkway from the core through the bedroom. it wouldn't be that difficult to continuously cast one in concrete and there would be no requirement for any other material that could burn except the fire doors. No windows, no cladding. Put the emergency lights on the outside with a glass block inserted as you go so no wiring inside.

[dennis]

I don't think anyone is suggesting doing it to that block.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

All the usual things it was built to do. Preventing fire and smoke getting into it. Having emergency lights and so on. Proper signs etc. There weren't even any floor numbers on it. Great help to the rescue services - not.

I'm not - you are by suggesting a second staircase is essential. I'm guessing the original design of the staircase and public landings etc was compromised by the redevelopment. And not picked up by a decent inspection afterwards.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I wasn't either. It will almost certainly be demolished - even if the structure is still sound. I doubt many would want to live in a building with a history like that no matter how well repaired.

There are plenty of examples around where it is more cost effective to start afresh than do major alterations to the structure.

[dennis]

Once its pulled down they can sell the land for a profit.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

And then pay even more for the land needed to replace it. It is already at the 'cheap' end of K&C.