DIY Legality

[Lieutenant Scott]

How is this possible?

[Lieutenant Scott]

That IS what I'm talking about. Double sockets are not adequately protected in a standard ring main.

In which case the socket should either be fused, or be able to handle more. Two sockets at 13A = 26A. We could have 26A fuses in ring mains, and double sockets that are made properly.

Which is why problems arise. Especially when people tend to assume there is a safety margin (and not the other way round!) - for example if food has a sellby date of yesterday, it's most likely just fine.

You'd think after 17 editions they would have got it right.

[John Rumm]

So change all yours to singles if it bothers you.

BTW the circuit topology is not relevant - the situation would be no different on a radial. It would be no different if you reduced the MCB size to 16A either.

(there are plenty of other examples of equipment design that take load diversity into account as well - probably best we don't tell you about those though ;-))

You will never get an standard "right" when its dealing with a constantly evolving requirement. Patterns of use change, technology changes and evolves. The law of unintended consequence will often bite! Hence you get evolution. Things that are proven to work well, stay. Things that demonstrate real world problems get changed. All that before you even consider political and other vested interests exerting influence.

anyway, think this one is done to death now...

[Ian]

Bloke rewired his own bungalow and had leccy board come round to connect.

Man From Leccy Board looks at wiring behind sockets, only one T&E, where, on a ring, he would expect to see two (or three if there is a spur involved). MFLB: " Can't connect. Your ring main isn't a ring, there is only one T&E going to each socket" Owner: "It IS a ring. Look in the loft." MFLB goes in loft: sees ring around edge of loft near roof, *30A joint boxes* actually onthe ring, with single T&E going off down to each socket outlet. MFLB: "Can't connect. At least half the socket outlets must be actually ON the ring" MFLB goes away.

An couple of hours later, MFLB gets call from his boss, to go back, reinspect and connect.

MFLB goes up into loft, to find that each and every 30A jointbox had been removed, and replaced with a 13A socket outlet, neatly screwed with a box onto the joists. Each 13A s/o had a spur down into the living area, with one

13A s/o on the end......

MFLB gave up and connected.

[Andrew]

Misty grey tiles - must have been done in the 90's. What colour is the bathroom suite ?.

Andrew

[Andrew]

If that is their diet, then they will needs those Andrews Liver salts, if that is what they are.

Actually I think you work for the BBC don't you - all that product placement ..

[David Kemper]

Misty grey tiles - must have been done in the 90's. What colour is the bathroom suite ?.

MFI/Hygena cupboards too. I had the same ones in the early 1990's Even the knobs are the same.

David Kemper

[Lieutenant Scott]

ROTFPMSL! Some people just have no common sense whatsoever.

[Lieutenant Scott]

And have half the number of outlets? No.

If the MCB was at or less than the value that the double sockets could handle, it would be fine. Radials could also have their own breakers.

What happened to "safety margins"? This is the exact opposite!

It's very easy to get the standard right. Two sockets mean you can plug in two items with a 13A fuse on each, so the twin socket needs to take 26 amps.

[ARWadsworth]

Am I the only one here to be caught out connecting up the supply without the LECs permission?

That's twice in the last 12 months.

[Frank Erskine]

Is the bicycle relevant?

[Lieutenant Scott]

Which bit are you referring to?

[dennis]

8<

Someone needed to snip it so I did.

I don't know of any industrial electricians that would under rate the cables or fit doubles on a 32A breaker. This being because its unsafe to assume diversity will result in safe operation. So we are back to the old rules for domestic work:

Its probably safe but it isn't designed to be safe its probably safe. The user probably isn't going to overload anything even though its easy to do. We can blame it on the user if it goes wrong for doing something he probably shouldn't have. We don't have to work to the *minimum* standard specified by the "regs" (but we make more profit and have to think less if we do).

The "regs" are probably wrong, they have been in the past and will be in the future. For example there have been various improvements to ring circuits over the issues all slowly leading to a better probability of them being safe. The users of the stuff from old issues are probably less safe but its their own fault and they deserve what they get.

[Lieutenant Scott]

I know of a school which just had them fitted by industrial electricians. I did have to moan at them to change the breakers to slower ones as they tripped every time someone plugged in a trolley of laptop chargers.

Indeed. Why do we have to learn from mistakes instead of thinking and getting it right the first time? It's nearly as bad as release versions of software that are beta quality.

[Man at B&Q]

Very.

MBQ

[Ian]

I doubt if many people are going to pore over each issue of the regs as they come out, and have their installations modified accordingly.

Wouldn't surprise me if there was some slip-joint conduit kiccking around somewhere, with rubber-insulated cables in it. 3/029 possibly.... or even

1/014 !!