Better get an allotment or a second hand refrigerated truck?

[T i m]

'Most people' would be happy to go with a majority, if it was in proportion to the question in hand.

If the question is 'do we get strawberry or banana milkshake, if you don't like either or both, going without (by not answering the question) is no big thing.

Being forced to answer an unanswerable question (to anyone wanting to do it based on fact not racism, bias, bigotry or bs) and where the

*wrong* decision could be very bad for many, you can understand (well, not you obviously) why the majority chose to stick with the status quo or abstained on voting on it at all.

Quite right, they would proffer the thought that even with the 'information' available some 2 years later, most people (including the UK government and the entire EU) still don't know what's going to happen in the end.

Did you vote for 1,000,000 of the existing migrants to be given leave to stay?

Rather that reverting to strawmen and spouting your hopes and dreams re what you *think* the final deal will be, why don't you tell us all here what it *will* be, so we will be able to see how good a clairvoyant you are?

Except, we know you won't, no fanatic Brexiteer will, because they have as much an idea of what the final deal will be as they have the resultant impact on 'most people' in the UK as a result. Worse, they don't actually care either, as long as they are ok and / or it massages their personal crusades.

They are the 'fools', thinking they have the answers when really they are just chancers on a crusade. There is a *massive* difference between a supermajority deciding something on the facts v the chancers voting because the voices in their heads told them they were right.

I didn't vote because I wasn't foolish enough to vote on lies and promises ... oh, and I wasn't a 'Little Englander' or racist either ...

Not voting is very much part of the *ongoing* discussions with the broken government and the split population. All still discussing something that 2/3rds of the population didn't want in the first place (or they would have voted for it).

Cheers, T i m

[Martin]

For example?

[John Angus]

[RJH]

Isn't that contradicting the point that you're trying to make. The UK appears to import the majority (85%) of its vegetables from the EU, and at least 1/3rd of fruit. And exports ('re-imports') the majority of fruit and veg to the EU. So any adverse change to the trade relationship between the EU and UK will have a proportionate impact?

And I'm not sure at all about the quality of the data. My reading of the UN Comtrade* data (which ITC cites as its source. PMC seems to be some sort of trade lobby) for 2012 bears little resemblance to yours. For example, fresh apple imports for 2012 were 150,000 tonnes - the PMA data cites 476,000 tons (metric or US?).

And surely the better measure is value, and not weight? Looks like the data is to be used for shipping analysis and not trade as such. I'm not familiar with this data though - happy to be corrected.

[RJH]

snip

Voting systems 'work' on the basis of reasonably informed choices.

Given the concept of 'Brexit' was never properly explained (and still isn't clear); the campaigning was at best tainted, at worst illegal; and the quality of information and debate was poor. On both sides.

So how is anyone supposed to make an informed choice? That isn't the way a decent voting system or a democracy works.

[John Angus]

Nope.

Clearly what it imports from the rest of the world works fine and the volume can obviously be increased if it makes more sense after leaving the EU to do that.

Not when looking at whether imports from the rest of the world works fine or not.

[T i m]

I think you may be wasting your time trying to explain such things to w-d as it's obvious he isn't interested in any opinion other than his own.

But you are right, a why a referendum isn't considered the right tool for that sort of job (and why they had to bastardise it away from it's default status of an 'advisory poll').

Except to those who either already were on a crusade about it or we just racists. Most people probably didn't have a strong opinion either way (as reflected in the outcome of the vote)..

Quite, but suggest therefore that the result should be annulled and the Brexiteers are up in arms. Surely they should be keen to see real democracy at work?

You can't, it's impossible (of course).

Many who voted to remain did so not from an 'informed choice but because they were between a rock and a hard place and so opted for the status quo 'because'.

Many who voted leave did so because they actually believed the BS campaign, are racists (even if only as 'Little Englanders') or as a protest against the powers that be. They were also of a mind set where they were willing to gamble our cow for some magic beans.

No, 'of course' it isn't and could well explain why nearly the same number of people who voted leave or remain, didn't vote at all. I didn't vote, not because I couldn't be bothered (I turned up at the polling station) but I couldn't determine from the FACTS available at the time, which 'would' (not 'might be' *if* it all goes in our favour) be best for most people.

And that's based on the facts available at the time (or now for that matter), because I wasn't already on some anti-EU campaign or arrogant enough to think we still had the right to think we were 'Great Britain and that the world owed us anything. Ask anyone for whom 15th of August 1947, the 4th July, 1776 or 1st July 1997 are important dates (to name but three) ... what they think of us and you will get the idea.

Cheers, T i m

[whisky-dave]

No they don't voting is just a choice and that is it. Politics isn't a science.

yes I know we see this in other areas too and it is part of politics.

And how anyone to make an infomred choice between a smoothie and a wagon wheel for breakfast ?

[whisky-dave]

te:

ngdom.pdf?la=en

Now that sounds lijke a great idea doesn't it, why do they bring the produc e to the UK and then expoer it back to the EU, someones making money from t his I bet a fiddle somewher unless it's main aim is to create global warmin g or to fill our roads up with lorries.

Can you explain this ?

I would have thought so but the claim seems to be that we won;t be able in import certain this and that will have NO effect on the country exporing wh ich seems strange to me.

ed-kingdom-uk/

when cheese exports drop to zero what will happen to those businesses that supply cheese to the UK ?

Well the UK has long tons and the US has short tons. UK being about 10% more than the US.

Interestingly while both tons weigh differnt amounts both are 20 hundredwig ht, and it's only metric if written as tonnes

Value to who ? and hoiw do you measure value unless it's in the local curre ncy.

[RJH]

Ah OK, I don't know enough about it all, didn't realise that.

Again, not something I know much about - hence the question.

[whisky-dave]

That is you, the 0.2%

But it was considered the right tool for the job when we voted to remain in the EEC in 1975 so a referedum is OK when you get the result you want, isn 't that what you are saying ?

WHo is they they here ?, I thought that was down to david cameron. He was a remainer wasn't he, he or perhaps his party. Do you want a party that has been legally illected to make suchb decisions or should it be someone else that hasn't been voted in ?

But I do agree it shouldn't have been changed but ot wasn't me or those vot ing that changed it.

That more than 60% knew what they wanted to do on arrival at the polling bo oth, a few couldn;t work out what to do when they got there and the others stayed at home just like in a general election you DO NOT add the those tha t don't vote to any party.

Real democracy is taking notice of those that got up of their arses to vote (or postal votes or proxy vote).

What sort of democracy takes notice of those that don't vote. ?

So nothing gets done then.

Yes as did those sleeping with harvey weisnstien they didn;t know that they could get jobs as acresses unless they had sex with him no other jobs exsi sted that;'s why they had sex with him or why they put up with his behavoui r because they had no choi ce but to accept the status quo.

But unless you know those that voted to leave you don't know that, if you d id know that then you'll be a leave voter too. In the same way only a drug addict will know how a drug addict feels and wi ll respond others just guess based on their perceptions of them.

Well we are unless the scots leave. You do know why it's called great britain , great doesnl;t mean good it mea ns large in this context.

So the USA should never have left Great Britain, well we didn't given them the option to vote on it did we. Same with the commonwealth previously all those countrieds 'belonged' to GB when given the 'vote' they decided for themselves some kept the queen as h ead of state.

[Martin]

There is something wrong with their or my definition of fresh how can UK be an exporter of fresh oranges and pineapples?

[RJH]

That's just ridiculous. 'Choice' means a range of options. Even if they're not decent (and I would suggest they do need to be decent), you do at least need to be clear on what the options mean.

Think my alma mater might disagree :-)

Indeed. But even by UK standards the EU referendum was a complete horlicks.

If you were right there wouldn't be all this fuss about a re-run or a sub-referendum.

And your case rests.

:-)

[whisky-dave]

So in a genral election what choice to you get, it;s almost always just between the two main parties CON or LAB when was the last time you remember anyone else winning ?

So what did the last general election options mean ?

I wasn' aware they are sentience objects, does it use a digital or analogue system. I've alsway considerd politic to be digital.

[whisky-dave]

n wheel for breakfast ?

Well this was after watching a program last night that tested smoothies and found them useless and at worse bad for you. I'm just glad I haven't gone over to smoothies (which I don't like) and stu ck to my breakfast of one wagon wheel, one 2 bar kit-kat and a single twix.

No wonder I'm so healthy :-)

It certainly does. I'm not paying £3+ for poison I don't even enjoy. :-@

[bert]

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)" writes

Another of your stupid comments.

[bert]

Not really. I'm sure the Greeks/Italians/Spanish will be happy to carry on selling it to us. The "EU" won't be able to stop them.

[John Angus]

No.

how can UK be an

By importing them from the rest of the world and exporting them from the UK to the EU because the UK port system works so well.

[bert]

In article , T i m writes

[bert]

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)" writes

Live in a hovel did she?