Beeny's back

[Tony Bryer]

I'd rather have 2 million informed voters (if you could find that many)

[Stuart Noble]

?

[Dave Gordon]

OK, and who picks the "informed" voters? Why should the other 38 million (or however many it is) eligible voters not be given the right to express their opinion? The stupidest person is entitled to vote. He may not vote the way the *intelligentsia* vote, but his opinion is just as valid. Or should we base voting rights on IQ, or amount of taxes paid, or membership of the right club? We got rid of that system a hundred years ago.

[The Natural Philosopher]

just as valid.

Is it? What do you mean by 'valid' anyway?

I sometimes think that all the ills of the world are down to people having opinions that they have no facts or rational thought to back up.

Do you really hink Drivels opinion is as valid as e.g Ed Sirretts?

of the right club? We

I would say yes, after a lifetime of watching the wool being pulled over the eyes of the electorate. It used not to matter, as the civil service was an elite club stocked with intelligent people, who generally stopped the grosser stupidities dead in their tracks, and the Lords usually sorted out the more ridiculous laws, but it got in the way of Nu Laber, and they destroyed it and put in wankers. so that more than ever what we have is an elected dictatorship.

What one man one vote means today, is a new elite: one that is controlled by the money that is used to fund the marketing that wins elections.

Whether you thin that having lord Charlie, tax exile in the bahamas who controls the total cocaine distribution in the UK, is a better man to have pulling Nu Labers strings than old Squire Horseface pulling the Torsie' - who at least had an affection for the country, had prbably risked his life for it in the Army, lived in it and believed in it, is your choice really.

Elites haven';t gone away, they have simply gone into underground mode. There are some truly unpleasant people standing behind politics - there always have been, It attracts them like shit and flies. What has happened though, is that everyone else has bee removed from influence; the decks have been quietly cleared of all the VISIBLY privileged, leaving just the shadows.

The Rupert Murdochs and his ilk.

At least once upon a time the elite maintained some public standards of decency and honour, however corrupt they might have been behind the scenes. Once unmasked it was social and political exile at the least. Today what happens? 'Anyone can make a mistake: I'm not resigning'

It seems to me that we have not made progress towards a better system of goverment, quite the reverse in fact. The Nu Laber dictatorship is a

1984 like parody of democracy, and bears more resemblance to the feudal system than anything that preceded it.

Tw word wrs broke the aristocracy and established a meritocracy. That lasted about 25 years, and its now an oligarchy.

>

[Stuart Noble]

however many it is)

person is entitled to

just as valid.

of the right club? We

But we've stopped short of proportional representation, thereby creating the illusion of democracy without having to subscribe to it. How very British!

[Tony Bryer]

No, I would argue that people's opinions on things they know nothing about are not just as valid. Do you think that decisions about which cancer drugs should or should not be made available should be made by the editor of the Daily Mail and its readers, or by those who really understand the issues? There is little doubt in my mind that if they were asked the 'right' question Part P would have been overwhelmingly endorsed by the electorate.

The other point, which lay behind the ill-fated poll tax, is that people will be all to willing to vote for things that will benefit them but cost other people money.

[Doctor Drivel]

Far more so, as he backs them up with hard professional experience.

[Andy Hall]

How would anyone with half a brain want PR? This is the guaranteed way to produce a fudgy outcome

[Stuart Noble]

If fudge is the will of the people, then fudge it should be. Why should one person's vote count for more than another?

[jal]

FFS! 'rolling on the floor, laughing my arse off', old chap.

Having been around for a while, and even though I am "a child of the

60s", (i.e. I was a child in the 50s, and a proactive young person the in 60s) I nonetheless agree with The Natural Philosopher, in everything he said above, viz.

I would say Yes, after a lifetime of watching the wool being pulled over the eyes of the electorate. It used not to matter, as the civil service was an elite club stocked with intelligent people, who generally stopped the grosser stupidities dead in their tracks, and the Lords usually sorted out the more ridiculous laws, but it got in the way of Nu Laber, and they destroyed it and put in wankers. so that more than ever what we have is an elected dictatorship.

What one man one vote means today, is a new elite: one that is controlled by the money that is used to fund the marketing that wins elections.

Whether you thin that having lord Charlie, tax exile in the bahamas who controls the total cocaine distribution in the UK, is a better man to have pulling Nu Labers strings than old Squire Horseface pulling the Torsie' - who at least had an affection for the country, had prbably risked his life for it in the Army, lived in it and believed in it, is your choice really.

Elites haven';t gone away, they have simply gone into underground mode. There are some truly unpleasant people standing behind politics - there always have been, It attracts them like shit and flies. What has happened though, is that everyone else has bee removed from influence; the decks have been quietly cleared of all the VISIBLY privileged, leaving just the shadows.

The Rupert Murdochs and his ilk.

At least once upon a time the elite maintained some public standards of decency and honour, however corrupt they might have been behind the scenes. Once unmasked it was social and political exile at the least. Today what happens? 'Anyone can make a mistake: I'm not resigning'

It seems to me that we have not made progress towards a better system of goverment, quite the reverse in fact. The Nu Laber dictatorship is a

1984 like parody of democracy, and bears more resemblance to the feudal system than anything that preceded it.

Tw word wrs broke the aristocracy and established a meritocracy. That lasted about 25 years, and its now an oligarchy.

[Andy Hall]

Are you kidding?

All animals are equal. Some are more equal than others.

[Anna Kettle]

PR sounds good in theory, like 'each persons vote is as important as each other persons' but you have to look at what happens in practice, which is that there is a much higher likelihood of several small parties each getting part of the vote

The next thing that happens is that these parties get together and create coalitions

So all that is achieved by PR is that the decision as to which MPs get to be in the ruling bloc gets transferred from the voter to the MP/party ... so the voter has less say in the process than they do at the moment

Anna

[Stuart Noble]

Ok, Benjamin, we get the picture

[Andy Hall]

It was Napoleon

[Stuart Noble]

But Benjamin was your favourite IIRC

[Doctor Drivel]

Can you tell me when this meritocracy existed? A new one to me!

[Stuart Noble]

Perhaps he means mediocracy

[The Natural Philosopher]

Between about 1955 and 1980

The civil service was staffed with actual intelligence for a short while. And governments listened to them.

Then they stard getting in the way of ideology, so they were replaced with yes-men.

[Doctor Drivel]

Both in the same sentence.

[Andy Hall]

Snowball - but look what happened to him.