Adam's apprentices

In message snipped-for-privacy@brightview.co.uk>, michael adams <mjadams25@ukonline.?.invalid> writes

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I attended a selection session for an apprentice position at George Kents (water meters now long gone).

The applicants were handed several sheets of paper and asked to sketch what mechanisms were hidden behind plywood sheets held up by an assistant.

Visible from the front were side projections which moved up/down/sideways/rotated etc. due to whatever part the assistant moved.

Sadly I was very poor at doing this and the interviewer suggested I might do better as an electrical engineer!

Reply to
Tim Lamb
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OTOH in developing countries tinkering is much more prevalent and if the soldiers *had* had a bicycle as children [1] they would probably have known how to change the tyre, patch the inner tube, fix the chain etc and even weld the frame with a couple of wires from the light socket and a home-made transformer.

Owain

[1] Yes, I do mean one bike, many children :-)
Reply to
spuorgelgoog

Indeed. I thought that- the instruction is ambiguous, and I'd interpret them as Roger states.

Reply to
Chris Bartram

What a very good response, Michael!

IME, people who ever said to me, in my long life, [you] 'cannot obey a simple instruction' were the type of mild bullyboys who made it to Corporal, and never got further.

John

Reply to
Another John

In the US you cannot even buy a mains plug, strickly speaking.

Which would be a problem in our village hall, where the three appliances you are asked to leave disconnected and (for the two fridges), door open, have their mains cable coming up through the counter top via a cable-width hole, with the plug above along with the wall sockets.

Reply to
Tim Streater

Or even on the rough paper. B-)

Or workings trying out various methods to solve the problem before transcribing all the workings of the choosen method to the answer paper.

Reply to
Dave Liquorice

But still easyly available, so someone must be buying them.

The world is a very different place these days. Kids have other ways of "building" things that have far faster, idea, build, try, fail, new idea loops. And for things that are all but impossible to do in the real world. Anything from spacecraft or land based vehicles to electronic circuits into discreet component logic blocks into computers...

What they don't teach are the physical skills, like how to use a screwdriver, hammer, spanner, etc. How various materials behave under various stress's (heat, cold, tension, compression, bending, twisting...).

Reply to
Dave Liquorice

My school maths papers had enough acres of crossings out even with rough paper attempts!

Reply to
Roger Hayter

A big part of which is an interest in the subject. Demostrated by knowing such "chance" facts. Also bear in mind that these days when you leave school at 16 there is an swful lot of pressure to gone on to A levels, college or apprentiship, actually getting a job is the bottom of the "approved" list of pathways at that life stage. Not that that there are many jobs for 16 year olds out there, as the 18 year olds who aren't pushed onto to Uni after A levels or college are far more "qualified". To get any form of support a "low achiever" 16 year old has to take what ever is offered, even if they have absolutely no knowledge or interest in it what so ever.

That ought to be indicated by the GCSE grades in Maths and English.

Not just immigrants, how long of moulded plugs been madatory? Anyone below about 40 probably hasn't knowingly seen a wireable 13 A plug let alone had to rewire one.

Reply to
Dave Liquorice

We certainly did for our daughters but from my time teaching I'm sure we were in a minority.

You still find youngsters who do tinker with things etc - I bumped into a former pupil a few months back and he reminded me I'd given him a special version of the R Pi OS I'd assembled when he was in Year 7 or so. He had just secured a place at a good Uni to study for an engineering degree. There were others who tinkered with computers at the 'low level' and/or electronics/amateur radio etc but not many. To most technology was something you bought.

Even basis DIY skills seem be an issue for many youngsters.

And no, I'm not someone who likes to damn the younger generation- I think we've done them a disservice by not ensuring encouraging them to learn basic skills.

Our three could all do basic things like fit a plug, change a fuse, when they could drive, change a wheel, check the oil etc. When they went to Uni, I sent them off with a basic tool kit. When they got their first flat etc I bought them a reasonable DIY tool set. In particular, when they shared a house as students, they were the ones who fixed things. Oh, they are all girls- I've no time for stereotypes, I've worked with some excellent female engineers.

Those have their place and I'm certainly not deprecating them. However, they shouldn't replace the teaching of the real basics. Plus, even the best computer based modeling SW has its limitations. Been there, seen the 'work arounds' ;-) (EMI compatibility is a good example.)

Those are the key skills which are so often lacking in people.

Reply to
Brian Reay

In current exams, at least Maths unless it has changed in the last few years- it is normal that you can't be award the Answer (A) mark if you don't show the working and also get the associated Method (M) mark(s).

I forget the exact detail but from memory for A level Maths, something like 80% of the marks are Method (M) marks.

The mark scheme used generally shows the expected method but alternate, valid, methods are allowed and will receive the same marks. Depending on how the exam board works, they sometimes circulate modified mark schemes with alternate approaches which have appeared.

Reply to
Brian Reay

??? Home Depot sells them.

Reply to
S Viemeister

When our daughter moved into a shared flat, we gave her a set of basic tools - in 'girly' colours, so her male flatmates wouldn't 'accidentally' acquire them. Turns out, not only didn't the guys have tool-kits, they wouldn't have known what to do with them.

Reply to
S Viemeister

But 8 hours after Roger Hayter had already given the correct answer. And rather more succintly. Not that I copied his answer only I didn't read through the thread first.

As indeed what was missing from the original specification was the time element. How much time was alloted to the question and how long the respectiove candidates actually took. Basically if ten minutes was allowed and some candidates a) correctly answered the question in three minutes in neat writing while leaving the workings sheet blank then clearly they would be the smartest. Whereras the ones who used the workings sheet b) , copied it out neatly and answered the question correctly within say five minutes would most likely be smarter than the ones c) who took the whole ten minutes to answer the question correctly in neat writing while leaving the workings sheet blank. As stated, there's no real way of sorting a) who are smarter than b) from c) who are probably dumber than b).

Indeed. With ambiguously phrased or "trick" questions what is often being tested is initiative and the willingnes to take calculated risks, rather than reasoniong ability as such. In the above test planning maybe also comes into when trying to make out the intention behind the question. Did the question paper provide enough space to display all the workings out ? Obviously candidates with large writing might view things differently from candidates with small writing. How did candidates fare who eventually found they couldn't fit all their workings onto the question paper both front and back ?

Daniel Kahneman the "thinking Fast and Slow" author early in his career devised selection tests for the Israeli Army. I can't remember the precise details but the big conclusion was that none of the original, carefully thought out tests he devised actually measured what they were supposed to be measuring

michael adams

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Reply to
michael adams

Indeed. Up to last year I used to set a variety of problems which required the student to analyse a disk image, extracting filenames, metadata and so on, as requested. I generated a random image each time.

The answers themselves attracted virtually no marks. The (sometimes complex) steps to get there were what gained the marks.

Reply to
Bob Eager

A lot of, perhaps most, modern appliances with separate plugs have rewirable ones even if though they are already fitted. Check out table lamps in your local store.

Reply to
Max Demian

They are not mandatory

You must be kidding

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Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Well OK IME you could buy ugly ones like this:

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And even then, that only seemed to be available from specialist stores. Ordinary hardware stores didn't seem to stock rewirable plugs.

That was in the 80s, West Coast. Perhaps things have changed.

Reply to
Tim Streater

What if the rough sheet had doodles on it and matchstick figures? How do they know whether they are 'working' or not?

Reply to
Max Demian

That would show you don't know what blotting paper is for, no doubt important in those days.

Reply to
Max Demian

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