Who actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank? (2023 Update)

[Alex Gunderson]

I've never sued anyone in my life, and I'm over 60, so, probably not. Unless someone was hurt badly, and then I'd probably want their medical costs covered.

Also, I must repeat, the chance of the tank blowing up is so low that it's more likely that the chimney will blow over in a strong wind - so I must deal with more pragmatic matters.

The most pragmatic seems to be for me to buy a new tank (if they won't sell the old one to me for a good price).

The key problem with a new tank is that the old grandfathered rules no longer apply - so - I am scoping out the additional concrete pad, tie-down points, trench, conduit, risers, & regulators.

[Alex Gunderson]

That's exactly what I'm leaning toward.

To that end, I had a long talk with the propane company sales & technical support.

This is preliminary, but this is what I'm assessing:

1. Propane company will deliver a new empty tank
2. Tank must (now) be 25' from all structures
3. Trench needs to be 12" deep (if not driven over)
4. Tank must have a reinforced concrete pad
5. Pad must have tie-down eyebolts or lag bolts
6. Conduit must have metal wire running alongside
7. Both risers must be plastic or steel
8. Propane company will install & own the 3 regulators
9. Propane company will deliver tank (but I can own it)
10. Propane company will install & own tie-down straps
11. Propane company will connect, own, & inspect connections
12. Propane company will deliver fuel

[CRNG]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 11:16:37 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson wrote in Re Re: Who actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank?:

I used to have a R.E. license in Calif, and from what you have written, here is my take on the situation.

a) If the previous property owner owned the tank, then you now own the tank, because it is part of the real estate, being an attached appurtenance to the house.

b) If the previous owner did not own the tank, (e.g. it was owned by the gas company-A ) then the gas company owns it.

c) When gas company-A was bought by gas company-B, then company-B became the new owner of the tank, assuming company-B bought all the assets of company-A (and not just it's name).

I doubt it, but it's worth a try.

Let us know how it turns out.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Wow, that's funny. I can hear them laughing all the way over here. They will counter with a tank rental bill, of course.

[Alex Gunderson]

Out here, in California, all the propane companies will deliver a tank for free and let you rent it from them for a monthly fee.

However, the propane company I use will fill only two types of tanks:

1. Their tank
2. Your tank

They told me they own the connections from the regulators to the tank, including the regulators themselves. I can own everything else, on both sides of those connections.

So, I'm scoping this out as we speak.

[Ed Pawlowski]

If they even will sell you one. Many will not so they have you dependent on them for fuel. You will have to find one and have it installed yourself in some areas. As mentioned before, propane dealers can make used car salesmen and lawyers look good.

[Alex Gunderson]

Aha! That's the abandonment clause.

That's the one thing I'm unsure of, out here, for California.

I found THIS legal site, but it doesn't seem to cover that topic.

[Stormin Mormon]

If the tank has a company logo on it "BURNWELL GAS" for example, it's probably owned by them. If it's just white, it may have been purchased outright by the HO, or maybe no one remembers.

. Christ> I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen. > Any advice?

[Stormin Mormon]

Does he have to shoot the tank, and then shovel some dirt on the tank?

I've heard that in NYS, if the tank has a company logo, that other companies will refuse to fill it.

I advise you to very gently sand off any rust. Prime with grey primer, then paint the tank with white enamel paint, and don't say anything to anyone about it, like K says.

. Christ>

[Ed Pawlowski]

What loss? I don't see you having a loss. You bought the house and land it sits on. If the guy across the street happened to be parked in your driveway on the day you closed, would you get to keep his car? The tank, if owned by the propane company, happens to be on the land you don't get ownership. This is something that should have been resolved to your satisfaction before closing.

I don't see the title company getting involved. Would they help you if the previous owner left the refrigerator No, that is not covered under title insurance. It only covers real property against claims, liens, and that type of thing.

[Stormin Mormon]

I might have missed it. Is there some reason you don't just keep hiring the existing company to fill your propane? What's the big ownership question? Are they far too expensive?

. Christ> >

[Alex Gunderson]

Large tanks will outlast all of us, and then some; so I seriously doubt there is an "expiration date" on them.

When I first called the propane company years ago, they said I had to pay for an inspection before they would fill it (since I told them it was my tank).

I wasn't home at the time the inspector did his work, so I don't know what he did, but, he reconnected the tank and shut off and tagged the kitchen grill because it was missing an element (which I subsequently replaced).

I suspect (but need to confirm) that these large tanks won't be filled if they don't meet regulations, which the propane company has under control.

So I suspect inspection isn't a problem for the homewowner for these large aboveground tanks.

[Stormin Mormon]

Are you unhappy with the present company? Why discuss all the work to change tanks, if the existing tank is in acceptable shape?

. Christ>

[Alex Gunderson]

Nice find! That North Carolina web site says what I believe California does also:

Q: Why won?t another propane company fill the tank at my house? A: (North Carolina) state law prohibits one company from filling a tank belonging to another company. You may shop around for the best price (of propane) if you own the tank yourself, and that is the return you get for your investment of buying a tank.

It seems to be the same out here.

The propane company will gladly fill their tank or my tank, but not someone elses' tank.

[trader4]

+1

[trader4]

I doubt an abandonment claim would work too, but without knowing the state laws on the subject, who knows. If it meets the terms of the law, I don't think it would be hard to prove. The fact that it's been sitting there, out in the open for X years and the company who owns it has done nothing, is obvious. But the specifics of the law are what will count.

and

That's not true either. If the former owner owned the tank, then he owns it now, whether he has a bill of sale or not. It would be easier to prove that he owns it with such a document, but the lack thereof doesn't change who does or doesn't own it.

On top of all that, propane

Apparently they questioned him as to who owned the tank and he filled out an affidavit stating that he owned it.

[Alex Gunderson]

Of great interest was the NEXT question in the list!

Q: When I buy a house, does the propane tank become mine? A: In North Carolina, when a propane company sets a tank, they keep ownership of it.

Then they go on to clarify: "This is especially true for above ground tanks. Buried tanks become the property of the homeowner more often, but not always."

Apparently I might be able to check with the county that they filed the proper forms (if California law is similar to North Carolina law). "If the propane company wants to keep the tank, they have that right. If they file a UCC-1 form with the county for a tank on the property, then they have clear documentation that they intend to keep ownership of that tank, even if the house sells and a disclosure statement does not point out that the tank is not included in that sale."

And, maybe even if they filed, it, it might expire after a few years: "The UCC-1 expires after a specified time period and must be renewed to remain in effect."

[Alex Gunderson]

This section was particularly useful: "If the buyer makes it clear that they have made the effort to confirm the status of fixtures, and if the propane tank and its contents were not excluded, then they may have a legitimate claim of ownership should the question come up."

I wonder if my "as is" discloser is enough on due diligence?

[trader4]

Storm "Because I want to line up my ducks. Just in case they come to me, I don't want to say something stupid. I just want to know where I stand, legally. "

Then later he laid out his intention to buy a new tank, pour a new pad, etc and put it in. If it were me, I'd just continue to use the existing tank. And if I could find the previous owner, I'd contact them and ask who owned the tank.

[Tony Hwang]

Hmm, CA being earthquake prone place, reg. could be different regarding stationary tanks. Anyway up here in Alberta I have a little cabin way out in the wilderness but I have NG hook up. Gas company ran line to this neck of wood in anticipation of people building cabins ahead of time. We have power, NG, only water is depend on drilled well.