How to truck 1,000 gallons of potable water to a residence

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/1/2014 12:24 AM, DannyD. wrote:> > Roughly, 685 gallons x 8 pounds ~= 5,500 pounds, plus another > hundred pounds for the tank itself, is about 2-1/2 tons. > > So, we need to find a truck (or trailer) that can haul 2.5 tons > up a windy road from this brand new fire hydrant: >

> > Any suggestions on the pickup truck given those new numbers? >

Rented, comes to mind. I predict failures of transmissions, gear boxes, and all other kinds of things.

Interesting. That's a dry pipe hydrant. I thought you were / are in California? Does it get cold and freeze in the winter? North part of the state?

[Stormin Mormon]

Seeing as how you're having trouble with flow, duration, and interruption. Do you maybe have trouble with your prostate?

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 07:42:20 -0400:

I don't know what you mean by a "dry pipe hydrant", so, googling for that term, Wikipedia says it's a non-pressurized hydrant

But this "Guide to planning & installing dry hydrants"

implies that it's for sucking water out of a lake or pond.

I can call the San Jose Water Company to be sure, but, what do you mean by a dry hydrant (and how can you tell just by looking at the photo)?

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 07:44:08 -0400:

Let's not get into that!

Armed with the great information in this thread, we were able to garner another 1,000 gallons of water simply by lifting the floats in two neighbor's water tanks!

Here's the water flow from the newer home construction into the third of three 5000 gallon tanks after lifting the float:

By way of contrast, here's the flow into the first of five

5,000 gallon tanks at another residence after doing the same:

Thanks for all your advice, we're coming up with an action plan which will (a) inspect all the tanks, (b) test the fire systems, and (c) allow us to truck water up the hills when we run out.

[DannyD.]

DannyD. wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 12:53:38 +0000:

Ooops. Wrong picture for that second one.

Here's (a repeat of) the newer neighbor's flow:

And here's the older neighbor's flow:

[Stormin Mormon]

CY: The red one at top is dry pipe. Down a ways, the green one (my color vision is terrible) in the Phillipines is wet pipe.

CY: Not what I meant.

Well, actually neither of those was what I meant. In cold climates like NYS where I live, the fire hydrants use a long controlling shaft. The water pipe and valve are four or five feet below ground. When the FD turns the five pointed lug ON TOP, it opens the valve which is about four feet below ground. When the FD turns off the hydrant, a small valve opens at the bottom. The water in the barrel drains into a bit of gravel at the bottom. That way, the barrel does not freeze solid. Which would prevent use, or split the pipe due to freezing and expanding.

CY: Dry pipe hydrants have a controlling lug on top. Wet pipe hydrants have the lug opposite the cap and threads. Wet hydrants are opened by turning a lug on the SIDE of the barrel.

[Stormin Mormon]

Now, that's good news. Perhaps the folks who have good wells can and will share with others. I think it's a very wise idea to briefly test the fire department connections. Best to find a problem NOW, not during a crisis.

[TomR]

I haven't read all of the replies so far, and I have no experience in doing something like this. But these are some quick thoughts or ideas that come to my mind.

Would the water company require a meter if they were pumping the water into a fixed size tank or container -- such as a 55-gallon drum? Meter or no meter, if they are pumping the water into a 55 gallon drum, it seems like they could just charge you for the 55 gallons and call it a day. So, if they will do that, you could skip all of the meter cost issues. Hopefully the water company will go for that.

How much do clean empty 55 gallon drums cost? I don't know. But water weighs 8.3 pounds per gallon, so a 55 gallon drum would weigh about 457 pounds. Two of them in a 1/2 ton pickup truck should be no problem. To transport 1,000 gallons would take about twenty 55-gallon drums. That's 10 five-mile trips via pickup truck with two drums per trip.

Any chance that you could hook up a deal with a local (possibly volunteer) fire department? I don't know how many gallons a typical fire department pumper truck holds, but I know that most can pump 500 to 1000 gallons a minute if needed, so I assume that they can hold more than 1000 gallons. Maybe have them do a training exercise for newer firefighters on the operation and use of the pumper trucks and give them a significant donation for doing that.

Those are just my quick thoughts.

[bob haller]

Just yesterday I took a buddy of mine to buy 2 used 55 gallon drums, They wouldnt fit in his vehicle. 25 bucks for two.....

He bought 2 about 10 years ago and bought 2 new ones since one had cracked and leaked.

last time they were 2 for 20 bucks.

hauling water will become old, its time to drill a new well, go way deeper so this problem wouldnt occur again.

drillers drill brand new wells, rather than make existing well deeper....

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 09:04:07 -0400:

I spoke to Calfire who said they would be perfectly happy to come to our homeowners meeting and discuss fire protection during this time of drought.

We meet every few months so I sent that in to the person setting up the homeowners meetings.

[DannyD.]

TomR wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 13:10:56 -0400:

The local Calfire trucks are pretty small. They hold 500 gallons and 700 gallons. What Calfire told me was they almost always are attended by water tenders anywhere they go.

But, they said they don't ever put water in someone's tank unless they sucked it out. Whatever they use, they say they replace, but, they don't put it in if they didn't use it (liabilities they said).

Also, two different guys said different things regarding the wharf hydrants at every residence. One said they almost never use them, while the superior said they use them a lot. So, I'm not sure if they even use them, because they prefer their water tenders, but, they did say the pressure is low coming out of the wharf hydrants.

As for the training, they said they'd come out and talk to us at our homeowners meetings, which we have sporadically.

[DannyD.]

bob haller wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 10:19:08 -0700:

Why?

[Stormin Mormon]

I've seen some Youtube videos of forest fires in CA, and they are terrifying, even in NYS in my living room. Please invite everyone, only 10% will attend, and 5% will pay much attention.

I suspect the FD water is "non potable" since it's not food grade tanks, inspected, etc.

[Stormin Mormon]

I suspect the wharfs are gravity feed from the tank, nearly zero PSIG. Compared to mains on real hydrants. Still, it may some day be the only water to be had.

[bob haller]

I was told the old wells sides often collapse if they attempt to make them deeper. Brand new holes are said to be much better

[CRNG]

On Tue, 1 Jul 2014 21:50:53 +0000 (UTC), "DannyD." wrote in

My *guess* is that to drill deeper via an existing well, the "deeper" part will have to be a smaller diameter than the pre-existing well casing. For example, if you want a new well with a 6" o.d. casing, you probably have to drill with a 6.5" bit. If you want to deepen a

6" well, you can't use the 6.5" bit. You have to use something smaller that will fit in the existing 6" pipe.

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 20:03:04 -0400:

Well, I did ask them about that, and they said they replace any water that they use from our tanks or pools.

So, I would "think" it's potable.

They say more than one "water tender" accompanies them everywhere they go, if possible, so, most of the water they use is from those tenders.

They didn't know where the tenders get their water since they said they float and are not attached to any one fire department.

[DannyD.]

CRNG wrote, on Wed, 02 Jul 2014 06:59:30 -0500:

That makes sense.

I know I have two wells, where the new well is a few hundred feet from the old well.

So, in my case, they certainly drilled a separate well (but both are producing water, albeit slowly).

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Tue, 01 Jul 2014 20:04:23 -0400:

Yes. They're all gravity fed. There's really no other way because you can't depend on electricity in a fire anyway.

Mine is about 14 feet below the bottom of the tanks, so, that's roughly about 1/2 an atmosphere, which is about

7 or 8 psi (which doesn't sound like much to me).

Luckily, the FD can *pump* that, but they told me at the station they prefer the pool anyway, so, in "my" case, they'd use the pool instead (which is more than ten times larger anyway).

[Stormin Mormon]

Most likely from the muni hydrants. Quick and easy. Problem is that hydrant water is often rusty, and it's "possible" the tenders (we call em tankers in the east) are filled with pond water after a pond drafting operation.